As promised, we sat down for our second homebrew vertical. I shared 44 ounces of one of my regular recipes, my dubbel, the Dye-Cast. I intentionally set aside several large bottles out of every batch I brew for this very purpose. Not only does a vertical let us understand how changes in the recipe affect the experience over time but also lets us assess any changes, hopefully improvements, in our technical craft.

We first opened a 22 ounce bomber from last year’s batch. On first pour, we noticed it was cloudier than the bottle we would open next. It also had something a bit vinous in the aroma. I suspected that note may have been reduced in later beers due to changes we’ve made to our process. As it warmed, we noticed more of the yeast character coming through, including a bit of bitter that differs from the bitter you get off of hops. This recipe is a very lightly hopped beer, just enough to keep the finish nice and clean. I swirled the bottle and poured a little more for each of us at to get more of that yeast. It let us better compare the taste of the top and bottom of the bottle.

Head formation and retention was decent. With the beer before this one, I had a good deal of anxiety about charging and head in my first oatmeal stout. This beer didn’t have any real problems in this regard.

I talked a bit more about the recipe and my thoughts. This beer started as a clone of North Coast Pranqster. That brewery doesn’t really have a dubbel so the changes to push from a strong golden to this beer made a good deal of sense. John spoke about drinking the Dye-Cast side-by-side with North Coast’s abbey, Brother Thelonious. I explained how it is a rare golden or tripple I enjoy anywhere near as much as a dubbel or an abbey. A brewer who does the heat stress of Belgian yeasts right, like Franklins or Odenata, will turn out a lighter ale that I’ll enjoy, otherwise I find them to be lacking. Otherwise I really prefer what I found the Belgians to refer to as a black ale when I first visited Brussels. Speaking of, it looks like I’ll be heading back to that wonderful city soon.

John very strongly agreed with the skill shown by the brewer at Franklins, across all their recipes but especially the Belgian inspired ones. We talked a bit about our first trips there, when working on a volunteer project nearby for Carl Malamud. For the uninitiated, we explained a bit how working with Belgian yeast can result in very recognizable flavor notes. We were able to do something along these lines with the beer that we made in Carl’s honor, the Rogue Archivist.

We discussed my strongest reservations about this beer. One was a lighter body than I really wanted. The other was how strong the yeast funk can be, especially early on. Bottle conditioning has helped the latter but not so much the former. My experiments with multiple rest mashes were inspired by trying to fix the thinner middle palate experience with this beer.

We spoke for a bit about our last brew day, making the second batch of John’s Green Grass and High Tides. This has been an amazing beer and we are both eager to see how our experiences have supported our ability to technically improve on it. John noted how smoothly the current batch, waiting to go into the bottle, went. We are clearly more comfortable with the benefit of experience, better able to track and hit our marks. I coupled that with a moment of humility, that no matter how good we get, there is always more to learn, more possible mistakes with which we may need to contend, no matter our skills.

I diverted from our tangent to talk about a beer, Flying Dog’s Chinook Imperial IPA, that we ultimately drank off mic. Brewers may make beers like these, with single hop, single malt, or both, to help their peers and juniors experience and learn. John amplified that point, adding the appreciate for very distinctive house styles, like Oskar Blues’ very recognizable handling of their grain bills. He tries to use that intentionality in his dealing with oenophiles, trying to cultivate respect and appreciate for how technical craft and the sheer number of variables inform beer vs. wine. I reminded him that beer has terroir like wine but agreed that the differences that arise from the hand of the brewer make it such an unending quest and joy for us both.

The differences in batch two were apparent immediately on first pour. This beer was clearer with not as tightly beaded a head. There was still a bit of a vinous note in the aroma but less so than its older sibling. Overall all the first taste was everything we liked about the previous year’s effort but to a much greater degree. The color was richer, the missing body was really there, and the less desirable notes were much more muted.

I explained some of the changes, including the counter intuitive reduction of Carared, a crystal malt with a very distinctive red color. The grain bill was much larger, with less extract than we used the year prior. I explained how using multiple rests in the mash led to our discovery of the amazing sweetness of the Belgian pale malt. Again, John chalked up much of the improvement to a year’s worth of experience and the improvement in our craft.

We talked about future plans,  both for tasting three and four years of a beer in future verticals and maybe trying to do a vertical of John’s beers. We also talked about the next beer in my rotation, the next in our shared rotation too. We have set a date and will be brewing my 80-shilling, the Pirate-in-Chief, in a few weeks. I explained my heart ache in my last attempt at this Scottish ale not turning out but my optimism in trying again, informed by trying a good number of 80-shillings by other brewers.

I swirled the 2012 and poured out the last for both of us. The beer remained clearer than the preceding taste despite the obvious addition of more sediment. The mouth feel took a pleasant turn towards the creamy. The uptick in yeast made John think of funky and sour beers. He suggested that if gueze may still be a bit much, saisons are similar enough while remaining more accessible. It will be interesting to see how this informs his recipe selection and creation over the next few batches.

At the risk of being immodest, and in response to John’s suggestion that I enter this beer in a competition, I shared again my father-in-law’s reaction to it. I set aside a bomber of every batch I make for him, related to the story I told of sharing beer with him in our very first episode. On tasting this beer, he asked when I would start making beer professionally. Easy enough to laugh off except he was insistent, that he was serious. He loved the beer so much, he really wanted to be able to buy it by the case. My response then and what I hold to is that perhaps when I am ready for a third career, I think it most likely will be commercial brewing. John agreed and noted his willingness to join me at that point. His wife told him recently that he is clearly happiest, despite the hard work involved, when brewing.

John mentioned a recent episode of Basic Brewing Radio where James talked to a mead maker, especially his reasons for going with mead rather than beer or wine. This led us to discussing braggots, as a hybrid between a mead and a beer, and the mead John made and recently shared. He had been thinking about oaking his mead, something I think would be better served with a less delicate mead. At most if he wanted to experiment, I suggested maybe splitting a small portion to try on oak. My concern is the floral mead that he made would be lost completely on oak as opposed to a buck wheat or tupelo that has a stronger flavor in itself. I offered my thoughts on Otto in Oak from Victory as an example of where oaking may have its limits.

This is not to discourage the experimentation that can lead to wonderful combinations. We reminisced on several good examples like Schlafly’s barrel aged barley wine and the Balvenie rum cask Scotch. This kind of experimentation made us think of Sam Calagione, his thoughts on extreme brewing, and the lessons from his short lived TV show, Brewmasters. Talking about the failed batch of the 120 Minute IPA in many ways brought us full circle to both experimentation, failure, and even vertical tastings to keep feeding back into our tastes and our craft. Our final thoughts gravitated around consistency and variation, what going into the 2013 batch of this beer I want to work on.

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We were joined in this episode by a coworker of ours, Patrick Lucey, who is a program associate with the Open Technology Institute at the New America Foundation. In addition, Patrick is a dual US-German citizen and an advocate for craft beer from his home state of Vermont. He brought us some Vermonster from Rock Art a while ago. John and I both thought sharing this beer would be a good reason to have Patrick join us on the podcast. He started off by telling us a bit about Rock Art, one of the smaller breweries in the state, compared to say Otter Creek. The Vermonster is a bigger version of one of Rock Art’s signature beers, Ridge Runner, also a barley wine.

Patrick told us where the name Vermonster comes from. It is a common sort of nickname used by many folks in Vermont, include Ben & Jerry’s for a massive dessert challenge. Using it for an even bigger barley wine seemed like a natural for the brewery but it didn’t come without a problem. Namely the maker of Monster energy drinks, Hanson Beverage Company, pressed a complaint on trademark grounds back in Fall of 2009. Unlike the similar case of Gordon Biersch and Oskar Blues over The Gordon (now called G’Knight), Rock Art was able to utilize local pride to cause large enough public and media pressure to win out in the end.

There is a considerable strength in this sort of localism, especially when focused around a brewery. I was reminded of a quote by Frank Zappa, about a country needing an airline and a brewery to be real, suggesting this could apply to states as well. Patrick pointed out that Vermont has the highest number of breweries per capita of all states. You have to keep in mind that Vermont is a less populous state so on an absolute scale, it doesn’t rank as high, based on just the number of breweries in the state.

John pointed out how Dogfish Head really put Delaware on the map, another example of local grown value. I riffed a bit about how even though it isn’t a state, DC is coming along well by brewery count, including the recently launched Three Stars. My ultimate point was how this may be leading to a local filter failure, along with the boom of breweries in surrounding states. Patrick correctly labeled this as the paradox of choice, the inability to choose due to being overwhelmed when visiting Gilly’s, Pepe’s and Pinky’s or Barmy’s. John pointed out how the places that offer the choice to make your own six pack help when you lack a personal recommendation.

Patrick mentioned a few more Vermont breweries including Trout River in the most rural part of Vermont who are famous for Trout River Red. He also told us about a relatively new brewery in Burlington called Switchback that only kegs. Speaking about the difference between bottling and kegging he identifies John and I as beer scientists, a label that you may hear us use again. Magic Hat, with which many folks may be familiar, is located about two miles from where Patrick grew up. Like a lot of breweries we know, they make a lot of beers you cannot get except locally. Patrick likes the Single Chair, their lawn mower beer, and even noted how more widely distributed beers of theirs are different fresh.

John asked about the rules around brewery tours in Vermont, prompted by the discussion of Magic Hat. While you can buy growlers and maybe half cases, the samples have been limited. Whether he gets them at the brewery or not, carting back a large quantity and variety of beer cause Patrick to drive rather than fly when visiting his home state.

As recommended by the color text on the Vermonster’s label, we revisited the beer after it had a chance to warm. Not surprisingly, the malt character came out quite a bit more. The cold character on first pour was quite hoppy so having the grain contribution come out more was welcome. This barley wine is definitely closer to Duclaw’s Devil’s Milk than the sweeter barley wines. I digressed, as a beer scientist, on the limits of bitterness no matter what IBU may appear on a label.

Talking about the warming benefit of a high alcohol beer like this one and the cold winters in Vermont led Patrick to explain how the state has three seasons and a month of mud. We discussed some further trivia, not unique to Vermont as I remember learning about maple syrup in grade school, too. We talked quite a bit about the best days for syrup, seasonally, and the relative benefits and drawbacks of the counter intuitive grading system. John and I applied some more beer science to how different grades would impact the results of brewing.

We cracked another beer and shifted topic to Patrick’s experiences of beer in Germany. We poured out a helles from Augustiner Brau in Munich, one of the most famous breweries in Bavaria. He mentioned several other well known breweries including Weihenstephan, Paulaner, and Pinkus that are better known for their hefeweissen, a style that Augustiner is not as well known for, or at least they are as well known for their other beers. What Augustiner is known for, versus the others, is their beer garden. The others have bars at their breweries but don’t really operate their own gardens. Patrick attributed that to Augustiner growing out of a brew pub and also admitted that the garden there is his favorite, because it seemingly stretches on forever. The distance to bus the liter steins when customers are done is so great, as evidence of the garden’s size, they have a two man team operating a golf cart to collect and haul the empties.

Patrick discussed how the gardens typically work, in terms of seating and service. As much as it might seem that the lines for getting your own beer to take back to your seat might be long and slow, the choice is limited to what the brewery makes for starters streamlining choice. There is not surprisingly a good deal of efficiency in the serving that keeps things moving despite the huge number of patrons.

We delved into the beer purity laws which actually started in Bavaria and spread through Germany as a condition of that state joining the efforts to unify the country. I went off a little on some of the assumptions that arise out of the purity laws, like the idea it made beers simple in a way that is uninteresting. I also wanted to be clear that such laws, in Germany and elsewhere, were about protecting consumers from bad actors putting bad things in beer, not really about the inherent nature in beer. I personally think that is a historical gloss that drives modern adherence, especially in reaction to crazy American craft brewers.

John speculated that the nature of beers of modest alcohol and the basic ingredients may also have had cultural drivers in terms of how the beers are enjoyed, casually, in a wider context. Patrick told us how there aren’t really many nationally recognized beers, as such, that a lot of the variety derives from local differences. You get different beers not within the range of one brewer but by traveling to sample others who pursue different tastes. Patrick helped us understand the differences between some of the styles that are widely recognized, like hefeweizen and, what his family and locals consider beginner and Summer sipping beers, berliner weisse. I related it to my own impression of the first such beer, Festina Peche, made outside of Berlin. John reminded us of the historical reasons, in the absence of clean water, for making beers suitable for children to drink.

Patrick brought us to a close with his favorite beer garden story.

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We recorded on our most recent brew day and were joined by friend of the podcast, Chooch, who was recently returned from dipping his ass in the ocean. We all shared our appreciation of the restorative power of the ocean. Chooch explained the theory Viv, his wife, has in terms of having no choice but yielding to the greater power and majesty of nature.

We got off to an early tangent, teasing John about for the environmental noises most listeners are not likely to notice. I offered any of the other podcasts produced by our fellow non-profits and think tanks as proof of my point that New America has little to worry about with the quality of audio John produces.

We talked about how the brew day went, especially that we seemed to really hit our efficiency target in the mash. I was able to help track that and judge it with Brewzor, an app I loaded onto my new tablet. We were able to get an additional half gallon of beer and still hit our desired original gravity. In this batch of his stale vatted IPA, John has finally been convinced to take the plunge and oak it, a step he was not sure of last time. Among the many oaked beers we’ve had since that first batch that convinced him was Victory’s Dark Intrigue.

Our first beer was the last beer we brewed, the Dye-cast Dubbel, my Belgian dubbel recipe. Despite now being down to the last of this batch, I think this is the first time we have tasted it on mic. I reiterated our theory, previously shared, about where the sugary notes from Belgian beers really come from, that it is as much if not more the malts they use than the candy sugars which most people attribute. This put us in mind of other beers where the sugary sweet, especially with a fair amount of complexity, plays a strong role like John’s Jinx-proof Porter and the Southern Tier Creme Brulee. Caramelization and smoke are clearly a large part of that, like in the Backyard Ale from Flying Dog.

As much as we caught the same sort of sugary, caramelization and complexity in the Green Grass and High Tides, we also appreciated the intense hopping regimen. The first beer Chooch enjoyed with us arriving late at brew day, Sierra Nevada’s Hoptimum. John agreed with that over the top, sticky, unctuousness that he also likes in Oskar Blues’ Gubna.

I am not sure why, but perhaps revisiting earlier, challenging beers put me then in mind of Victory’s Storm King which I had for the first time recently and in which I found a nice chocolatey sweetness for the first time. I had Peg Leg from Heavy Seas for the first time in a while, too, and had a similar experience. Both experiences had me thinking that I need to find time to retry beers that I have not had in some time.

Chooch had his own palate level up, the Leifman’s Oud Brown, a sour ale that he really enjoyed. He embraced the funk, reading us his check in notes on Untappd. Like with my roasty beer revelations, he knew that had he tried this beer a year ago, he would have spat it out. Now, he enjoyed it a great deal. John explained what he finds appealing especially in the sour brown ales, which often has a nice malty finish. John reminded us of the straight gueze we tried several years ago, that as much as we disliked it, we should revisit that. I gave a few more examples of beers worth finding again and giving a second chance. Chooch nicely related this to our thoughts on touchstone beers, that there may be a worthwhile corollary in gauging progress in the cultivation in our palates.

John took that back to comfort beers but in the context of being a local guide. When playing host, it is useful to find the accessible but distinctive flavors, something that is close to the idea of re-visitation. This part of beer questing and sharing complements the usual seeking out of new peaks. I rattled off more local high points, especially a recent one off, the Derecho Common from Port City, but also DC Brau and Chocolate City. I related it to the motto Cmar shared with us in the last episode, that when friends are globally traveling, to visit us as locals, John’s thoughts fit nicely into that ambassadorial duty.

This reminded Chooch of a couple of new Virginia breweries, one from which he brought us some samples, Devil’s Backbone. The other one is Roanoke Railhouse but he didn’t bring us any as it didn’t stand out as much. These beers were involved with some of Chooch’s recent travel, where he was planning to meet with Billy and Flynstress from Geek Radio Daily. Though he missed that connection, he did find a place a little east of the city that had one of our very favorites, Brother Thelonious, on tap. I used to live in Richmond, over ten years ago, and recall even then some good spots comparable to Gilly’s and Pepe’s and Pinky’s. My first taste of Unibroue was at a local Richmond shop where the resident expert guided me to that brewery.

Chooch remembered that it was The Village Cafe he tried. It was of course good for food as well as beer. He was recommended to it via a roller derby connection, speaking of John’s cousin. A fellow roller derby player of Flynstress (whose nom de roller is Thistle Hurt) is a waitress at Village. John had been and also recommended it.

Talking about Brother Thelonius put me in mind, again, of its relation to my dubbel. It started life as a clone of North Coast’s strong golden but it was Thomas Vincent who really called it, that my changes morphed it into a dubbel. My trips to Brussels over the past year and tasting dubbels there have me agreeing more than ever. John shared his top five, which include the Ayinger Celebrator, Chimay Rogue, the Brother Thelonius, Gubna and quite possibly my dubbel, so a good representation of Belgian style beers.

I described a moment of immodesty when I shared this most recent batch of my dubbel with my father-in-law who I have a long history of sharing beer and homebrew with. On returning the empty of the bomber I gave him of the 2012 dubbel, he honestly and seriously wondered when I was going to go pro so he could buy this beer in particular by the case. I won’t lie, I have thought doing so might be my third career in another few years, especially since I feel like the recipe for the dubbel is pretty close to the target.

Chooch changed the tone, bringing the goofy. My first thought as he warmed up was the banana bread beer he brought us. He was thinking more about strange, wacky side projects. In this instance, he wanted to conduct a lightning round. He had a set of simple questions, this time on the subject of beer pairings. He first asked what beer we’d want to have with a big, juicy cheese burger. John went for a brown ale since that was the pairing he had when he hurt his finger all those months ago. For me, it was an IPA as I consider those my Summer beers, like Loose Cannon I’ve been having on tap recently. So much for the lightning round as we rat holed on Heavy Seas talking about their golden ale and the fact that AHA members can get a free brewery tour, a recent addition to the list of membership benefits.

Round two, best beer for a hot day on the beach. I went for the obvious, the Summer ales, like the one Sam Adams makes. I also thought of the spiced wit biers. John suggested Somersault, Negro Modelo and Pacifico. I offered a craft alternative to Negro Modelo, Chocolate City’s Cerveza Nacional which I enjoyed at a family friendly happy hour at Wonderland Ballroom. There was a lot of agreement around the Baja, Californian, Mexican local beers for hot days spent around water. This reminded John and I of one of the last times Chooch was on, sharing some beers from that region.

Final round, the best beer for buffering your system for transmatter ray teleportation. Think Douglas Adams. I haven’t been teleported but did have a good beer in mind for general purpose buffering of the system. At Meridian Pint after a stressful day, I had a session IPA from DC Brau, Groundwolf, that was conditioned in a rye cask and served cask style. I think it would serve to prepare for beaming aboard a Vogon deconstructor ship. No peanuts or cheese sandwich required. John recommended a liquid date bread of a beer, chunky and monkey, the 21st Amendment Monk’s Blood. It is a nutrition bar in a can. Chooch awarded the round to John.

Chooch’s third lightning round had us all appreciating how deeply science fiction has pervaded our lives. I talked about a recent episode of my other podcast, one of my intermittent discussions of the genre from a literary and cultural perspective. Mention of my other podcast put us onto some wonkish topics, including P2P piracy and admission that efforts by industry have not stemmed it. I was IGF USA recently sitting at a table with a representative with Disney who showed an odd dissonance around embracing online opportunities while still pushing back against piracy.

John brought us back to our last point of departure an interview as part of Intel’s Tomorrow project where Brian David Johnson interviewed Bruce Sterling. He got him talking about the electronic tools Sterling and William Gibson used to write the Difference Engine. Johnson previously interviewed Cory Doctorow and commissioned Knights of the Rainbow Table. He is also a Virginia local who we think we can lay good odds we could get on both this podcast and my other one.

Johnson’s work here really highlights a strong trend of futurism among not just Gibson, Sterling and Doctorow but many others like Rudy Rucker and Charlie Stross. Much of what Johnson has done here has very specifically been to leverage deep thinkers to spark thought and creation from today’s engineers. It made me thinking of the odd reminiscences I’ve been having using my new Nexus 7. For me, they served as a reminder of how continuous these inventions often are, that a connector like Johnson can help keep things brewing until the right opportunity comes along to see them really take off. We dug into how astonishing it is that so much of what was once futurism is now quite pedestrian.

John brought up Michael Lind’s new book, “Land of Promise“, which touches on how concentration and break up within the market affects innovation, for good and for ill. Chooch’s mention of AT&T’s “You Will…” ad campaign put this in John’s mind. Chooch had some other examples counter to one of Lind’s arguments about how much longer Bell Labs would have cranked out amazing inventions if not divested. Like many things, trying to tease out the best way forward is complex and challenging. I pointed out how this can lead to retrodiction, like the recent mischaracterization of the creation of the internet. John Scalzi’s confessions of a self made man better makes my point that we need admixtures of public benefit and private gumption.

I started to put a post-partisan point on the productive power of hard fought compromise. Chooch went even pithier with the quote: humans don’t scale. A good thought to end on.

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This is the final interview we recorded at Balticon back in May. We were joined by Dr. John Cmar, another contributor to The Secret Lair and a recognizable voice within the podcast community, especially podcast fiction. We cracked open a Firestone Walker Double Jack as Dr. Cmar has been known to enjoy the odd hoppy beer. We lamented how few of our guests share our love of the hoppy beers. Dr. Cmar pointed out one aspect of hoppy beers that may be responsible, that some brewers approach hoppy beers as a stunt or a challenge rather than crafting the various flavors available from the great selection of hops with care.

Cmar asked us about Dogfish Head‘s marketing of a randall, something we discussed in the last episode. Cmar was skeptical in terms of it being at odds with the craft and intent of the brewer. I suggested it may be worth trying just as an experiment, rather than viewing it as necessary for a given beer or series of beers. I also thought that at a brewpub, where the randall is part of the presentation and the product, may be more of that intent and craft that Cmar mentioned. John agreed with Cmar that his preference is for the beer as it is made, that a randall is another variable that may make it harder to quantify what it is that appeals, inherent in the beer itself. John mentioned comparative tasting, with which I agreed and think that limited use of a randall makes sense vs. using it all the time.

Camr’s mention, jokingly, of putting dandelion in a randall, reminded John of his first taste of alcohol. The woman one farm over used to make dandelion wine, steeping it almost like a sun tea. That was his first fermentable as a youth.

I mentioned having the Double Jack for the first time at Meridian Pint. Cmar has been there, as well, and spoke very well of it. We talked about Churchkey, another venue we enjoy. It was suggested we should drag Cmar along for our next visit to Churchkey. We compared these better outlets to RFD, which has a good variety and quantity of beer, but wants for the same sort of knowledgeable staff that you find at both The Pint and Churchkey. The renamed Bier Baron, that used to be the Brickskellar, is now somewhere in between with a reduce menu but better odds of getting what you order. It used to be a real gamble as to whether the Brickskellar would be out of any given beer.

We asked Cmar about his favorite places for getting beer where he lives, in Columbia, Maryland. He likes The Perfect Pour, which is the number 1 independent seller of Woodchuck, which gave Cmar an inside track on the release timing and quantities for their interesting sounding pumpkin cider. Another reason Cmar and even Laura, his wife, enjoy the place is its unusual air of class. As for restaurants, Cmar likes Frisco Taphouse and Brewery and shared the story behind it, inspired by the Frisco burrito. To what sounds like a great foundation, when successful the owner started to build a distinct offering of beers, mostly cask ales. Fueled by further success, the restaurant now hosts beer related events and has brought in even more craft beers in.

Cmar’s mention of Frisco trying to get one-off kegs and casks from recognized craft brewers made me think of recent offerings from Flying Dog. Especially in the last year, they have put out a good number of impressive limited run beers. My jealousy for our friends out West has declined a bit thanks to these new, local offerings. At its core, though, what seems competitive in terms of offerings really is about camaraderie and experience, down to the food, about which Cmar shared some quick impressions from the Stone World Bistro, out in San Diego.

We poured out a second beer, one given to us by friend of the show and recent guest Chris Miller, the Hoppin’ Frog Wild Frog Wheat. Based on the Boris we shared with Chip on mic before, we answered to Chris’ question of what to bring to Balticon this year that anything from this brewery would be more than acceptable. In talking about Ohio brews, we discovered that Cmar was originally from this same area. He admitted to not having had a Hopping Frog in a while. Appropriately enough, this wheat beer proved to be entirely delightful, with more flavor and complexity than the style and ABV would suggest.

John guessed that this beer might be the result of a suspended fermentation. I asked how you would accomplish that without imparting an unusual taste like with sulfide in wine and mead making. John said he had a compound useful for this purpose, what I guessed might be a flocculating agent. Cmar spotted a mention on the label of a special fermentation process, bolstering our hypothesis.

We diverted a bit on the subject of the show notes. I explained a bit of my rationale in assembling them the way I do.

John brought us back to the subject of Ohio, reminding us of the story from episode one, of his first real gourmet experience of beer. The place, at least where John studied, is clearly a draw for many amazing people and hence a fertile soil from which quality experiences flourish. Cmar expanded on that, emphasizing the attention to detail as part of the overall enjoyment of beer, understanding what informs all the different elements of the beer quest, rather than obsessing about the minutiae for their own sake.

Cmar mentioned going to Savor last year and, at the time of the recording, was looking to get tickets for Savor this year. He told us about his favorite salon from last year, a pairing between Ommegang with various desserts. This was led by Greg Engert, from Churchkey which we’d mentioned earlier. Cmar was impressed by the more complex, evocative tastes Engert came up with, exhibiting that very attention to how the components all combine in the unexpected but delightful resulting experience. John waxed philosophical about the importance of appreciating these life lessons.

This made Cmar think about an unusual music fest he attended, in particular a t-shirt he picked up, one that encapsulated one of the headlining band’s, Turisas’, philosophy. It had the motto that is the title of this episode and a list of how to give cheers in many, many languages. The idea really spoke to him, of traveling broadly but enjoying what the locals do. In the spirit of travel and experience, John mentioned going to ren fests for the music and the deeper touchstones through it, like seeking out bands like Wolgemut. Cmar told us about a band he likes, in a similar vein, Arkona, that evinces both amazing technical skill and very deeply considered mythology and story telling in their music.

We chatted a bit more about simpler but well made beers as we finished out the wheat beer. Cmar mentioned the Dortmunder Gold Lager as a modest but excellent favorite. I agreed, pointing out how our favorite local brewers, Bret and Eric of Growlers of Gaithersburg, very much embody this idea. The mention of an Ohio beer made Cmar a bit wistful for the experiences he missed while there and put us back on the idea of local offerings, selecting the Sea Nymph, again, to round out our tasting and conversation.

Cmar mentioned missing out on trying the Sea Nymph earlier in the weekend because of some Auchentoshan offered by Chris Miller. That reminded John of the cocktails he had been making to share throughout the weekend and Cmar of the stories of Auchentoshans past. John thankfully brought us back to the present, explaining for Cmar’s benefit Scott Roche’s sense of the hint of sea air in our final beer selection. This beer, as John put it, was like the mouse that roared; a light but incredibly well crafted beer that stood up really well to the bigger beers we’d been drinking all weekend.

An off hand joke about filling a randall with marshmallows put me on my idea, perhaps the time has come to make it, of a marshmallow stout where all the complexity comes from the crafting of the grain bill. The Willoughby peanut butter cup beer and the Growlers of Gaithersburg peanut butter and jelly wit beer both of which stood out as excellent examples of how technique can yield amazingly unlikely but delicious results. Cmar was floored by the mint julep beer that we mentioned in a series of similarly off the wall but great beers made by Bret and Eric.

Cmar shared one of the first beer experiences that really pulled him into the enjoyment of beer. He drove to Milton, Delaware to get two 750ml of a beer made to commemorate the 375th anniversary of the state. Called Zwaanend’ale, it was a honey, rye beer that worked as well as you’d hope based on the label. Cmar, as a consequence, still harbors a particular fondness for rye beers from all brewers.

Cmar finished with two excellent professional points, that alcohol kills everything and that microbiology makes beer.

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Our fourth interview, on the 3rd day of Balticon, was with Scott Roche, who is a writer, editor, podcaster, and homebrewer. We cracked open the Duclaw Exile Series X-1, an imperial chocolate rye porter, which reminded us very strongly of the coffee stout Scott shared with us last year. That homebrew had a very strong, distinctive coffee flavor, recognizably Eight O’Clock Coffee. Scott generously explained in his own words how he created this beer, a technique that turned out to be surprisingly simple. He described how he intends to approach this beer differently next time, most notably adding a measure of cold brew coffee right before the bottling.

Scott is clearly a research geek whose inclination serves him well in homebrewing. He also credited his home state, North Carolina, as being a wonderful place for home and craft brewing right now. In particular he talked about how and why several craft brewers are moving into Asheville in particular. As the craft brewers have moved in, they have been directly helping smaller businesses and investing in the community, moves that are hardly surprising especially given the ecological consciousness of New Belgium and Sierra Nevada in particular.

We continued to follow Scott on a talk through of the great breweries in his state, starting with Wedge and continuing with Foothills, in Winston-Salem. The latter bought Carolina Brewing Company mostly for the marriage of that added capacity with Foothills’ wonderful recipes, like a strawberry beer Scott mentioned.. John admired the skill it takes to produce beers that work well with strawberry and banana. We had a banana beer later in the con and Chooch shared a banana bread beer with us some time ago, one that it sounds like Scott has also had. Bananas put us in mind of chimps, monkeys and civets, perhaps not the best combination with beer. Maybe a civet coffee beer but let’s stay away from other notorious monkey habits.

As the beer we were drinking warmed, it reminded me of the 2X Milk Stout from Southern Tier. Scott has enjoyed many of the same Southern Tier beers, including Creme Brulee and Pumking. He had the latter on draft in a little hole in the wall local pub. John recommended Unearthly and Hoppe and the unfiltered blend of those two, Gemini. I explained the amazing mouth feel that Gemini has, something in common with Dogfish Head Squall.

Scott then mentioned something I had not heard of before but John had, a randall. Foot Hills has offered their People’s Porter that they randalled through cocoa nibs. If you want an over the top treat, apparently you can then take this version of the beer two doors down and get a scoop of Wolfie’s Custard to drop in it. Asheville sounds like even a more magical place than this would let on as Scott explained some of the businesses that combine other services with a little brew pub or tap house, like a gas station. We speculated on why this would be the case versus other areas. Scott revealed how surprisingly diverse this area is with several strong, recognizable sub-populations that lead to a weird nexus of awesome. The example he offered was Pisgah, which offers The Dancing Hobo, the creation story of which is also a unique admixture, literally; they won’t be able to re-create this odd mix of flavors made over time.

The story behind this beer reminded me of the one behind the infused beers that Bret and Eric at Growlers of Gaithersburg made over the course of last Summer. We had talked about these beers before but were sharing for the benefit of Scott who we have not yet been able to take to our home brewpub. We described another talent Bret and Eric possess as epitomized by the Thai One On, beers that shouldn’t work based on the description but totally do in the tasting. We mentioned the Pappy van Warhammer that we brought to the con to share, so we at least were able to offer Scott a taste later on.

Scott was at the Green Man, speaking of cask aged beers. The had their ESB both kegged and casked. He was amazed at the different this one change makes. I was reminded of Thirsty Bear, one of my favorite spots in San Francisco well known for its cask beer. The mention of an ESB took me back to another casked beer, one that Heavy Seas tapped at a fun event at the brewery a few years back. John and I talked a bit about the history of Heavy Seas, another of our local breweries, and I shared some news I’d heard of them moving into a larger facility. Scott did have a chance to try Heavy Seas Loose Cannon, not entirely to his taste as a stout and porter drinker, but recognizable for being well crafted.

Scott has been getting into fruit beers more lately. Fruit beers are the only kind that John and Scott can share with their wives consistently. Most recently Scott and his wife had what sounded like an amazing fresh peach beer. Scott recommended ciders for those who like fruit beers. This reminded John of one he has enjoyed recently, Fox Barrel pear cider. Scott recommended a recent sort of beer concoction he had in a little pub in The Woodlands in Texas, a Guiness and pear cider. John asked and Scott confirmed that a pairing like that is consistent with his love of cooking. Passion for good food we are finding to be a very common trait among beer lovers and home brewers.

Scott talked a bit about his experience of the con. As an author it was really busy but he and some fellows went in jointly on a table in the dealer room affording them all a bit more flexibility rather than being tied to the table the whole time. The opportunities for him as a writer are what keep bringing Scott back to Balticon, for which we are grateful, as he then has the opportunity to share beer with us and stories of the Big Rock Candy Mountain that is Asheville. But with beer. Or both. Or rock candy beer.

We next cracked open another local Maryland beer, the Sea Nymph from Heavy Seas which was a light, Summer beer. A palate cleanser if you will. I was the only one who had this beer previously. I picked some up at D’vines in Columbia Heights. I grabbed some Curiosity Cola there too for a coworker who doesn’t drink, though the rest of us enjoy them largely as mixers. On first taste, this beer took Scott immediately back to the sea air where he grew up, on the Outer Banks. All three of us have a shared love of the Outer Banks, unlike any other. John in particular enjoys eating at Blue Point that takes pains to hire on the same crew year after year. Scott recommended Mama Kwan’s, especially the garbage plate. It is a generous helping of jasmine rice with vegetables, having a heavy Caribbean influence fused with Asian flavors.

This beer put me in mind of another new seasonal from a favorite local brewery, Atlantic Lager from Flying Dog. Nuanced and subtle beers like these two brought to John’s mind an article, one that’s rather debatable, noting that some brewers are making beers specifically for each gender. We normally tend to reject that any particular beer is narrow to any particular palate, gender based or note. Case in point is how well all of us were able to appreciate the light, delicate flavors of the Sea Nymph after the much stronger flavors of the previous beer. The mention of strong flavors brought up the stinky weasel juice, Fernet Branca, again. Scott suggested it might fit in well with the odd Victorian flavors he was reading about in Steam Drunk, including interesting punches. John and Mia were at a Victorian dance class in the last couple of days where the instructor was talking about the strong drink in which people at that time indulged. An excellent resource for more information is the video series, The Supersizers Go… which had a Victorian episode among others.

The talk of food, drink and parties put us in mind of the need for a brew day, soon. Green Grass and High Tide is next up, a beer that Scott had a chance to taste. This made Scott think of an odd beer a musician friend of his made, one of his first, a mint tea beer. It took three years but on recently tasting, the friend apparently remarked it finally tasted good. We then got onto odd flavors, in particular on the sour end, like guezes that Chooch and Scott were discussing when they shared the stale vatted IPA. As bad a job as we often do in explaining why to try beers that require a more tolerant palate, it is worth trying just to see, not like a tazer to the tender bits which we all agree need not be experienced to know it isn’t worth it.

From there we got into our shared interest in cocktails, in particular how today we have more access to more tastes and experiences from all across the range of the past. As a writer, Scott has been especially interested in the stories and context around these flavors. John tied it to something that is probably hard wired into our nervous system and Scott offered another example about the human response to the pentatonic scale. That universality of experience was an excellent note on which to end the wonderful, far ranging chat.

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Our third interview, in the 3rd day of Balticon, was with Randy Chertkow, co-founder of Beatnik Turtle, author, teacher and a good friend of mine. We led off with a discussion of musical geekery arising from pulling Randy onto a panel the day before and having to share a mic. The panel went so well, I received a compliment from a woman who worked at the Library of Congress. That and even though the copyright panel was in a larger room, we still manage to fill it despite the very technical topic. Randy shared some of his thoughts on the two classes of questions that drive the discussion part of the panel, the portion for which I as a moderator prefer to allow the most time. I mentioned a couple of the acronyms, SOPA and PIPA, for which I am often called out when discussing down in the weeds activity around fraught laws. (In a post, as I promised in the recording, I can link to terms of art.)

To bring us on topic, I described the Idiot Sauvin from Elysian that we were sharing with Randy. Appropriately enough there is a monkey, always fun, on the label but in goggles which is highly appropriate for a con. As a single hop beer, this beer serves its purpose, letting us compare the Sauvin to other single hop varietals we’ve tried recently. John liked how the simplicity of the recipe avoids the problems that can arise from a beer with too many different hops in the mix.

Randy and I shared an encounter from the previous evening, one that had us a bit gobsmacked. Can you imagine someone who is allergic to hops? We met a man whose wife has this affliction. None of us felt we could sacrifice beer for kisses.

We chatted a bit about single malt as all three of us are enthusiasts. I mentioned the A’bunadh, which I had picked up for the con. Randy received a new to him malt, Highland Park, at his small gaming con, RandyCon. He found this Scotch to be a bit smoky, I admitted my palate has acclimated so I tend to like the smokey malts a bit better. We dug into some other malts we like, comparing as we do the elements in them that recommend them, like the Balvenie Carribean Cask, the Bunnahabain, the Lagavulin, the Macallan, and more.

Not surprisingly we moved from there to chatting about rye. John brought a full bar, including the titular dirty weasel juice and three different ryes. Sadly, Randy is allergic to rye making us feel lucky we didn’t choose the rye beer to share. As strong as it may be, the Fernet Branca has no rye and John tried to convince us of its other appeals. John suggested some other herbal liqueurs that may be easier to get into. He also offered some recipes for interesting cocktails that he is always ready to prepare.

John gave a bit of the history of this interesting liquors. We were delighted at the commonalities with beer, that monks were often involved in collecting and preparing the herbs. Given the strong self sufficiency and investment in craft and cultivation common to monastic life, this is hardly surprising. Speaking of the craft, John also got into the very meticulous aspects of distilling and how the right exercise of skill and technique yields so many different products from the same inputs.

We discussed a surprising counter-intuition, how great skill can produce beers we might not choose to drink. John insists that the mass market barley pops are just as demanding in their design and execution, arguably more so than homebrew. I mentioned the book we had been discussing with Chris Miller, Designing Great Beers.

We wandered from their into regionalism, talking about the environs in St. Louis around the macros and how the talent tends to flow more freely than expected between the big and the craft breweries. This put us in mind of the home brew and food scene in Chicago. I admitted to being a deep dish convert thanks to District of Pi. This DC pizzeria is a delightful intersection of Chicago, for the pizza, and St. Louis for the custom beer designed and brewed for them by Schlafly’s. Randy clarified that Uno’s outside of downtown Chicago is distinctly not the same as Uno’s and Due’s to which Randy took John when he visited.

This was Randy’s first Balticon. We chatted a bit about why this was so and his experiences. Many of the regular podcasting crew have been asking Randy to come to our hometown con for years and he admitted we were right to do so.

Speaking of Worldcon being in his hometown, we got into a discussion of the forthcoming next edition of Randy’s book, the Indie Band Survival Guide. He gave us the back story about the first edition, how it evolved from Randy and his bandmate, Jason Feehan, writing up a free e-book that was the sort of material they would have liked to have when starting their band, Beatnik Turtle. Their success is a testament to living the open media ethos, a rebuttal of claims that Creative Commons erodes the marketability of works–seven printings of the first book and a second edition when a lot of authors are not getting the chance at a follow up edition.

Randy is justifiably proud of the fact that the name of the book has gotten out. He explained how he continues to take care in shepherding this brand and ensuring that he is being respectful of his audience, rewarding them for supporting his success. Expect some more news around September around what sounds like a great set of plans for celebrating the new edition.

We talked a bit more about what is new and different in the forthcoming edition. The original version definitely was the sort of book you threw in your music case and dog-eared the useful bits. They really expanded that, making it far more of a reference, like a Hitchhiker’s Guide to indie music production. Randy explained how it is now much more step-by-step, covering in a concise way what the labels used to do for musicians and updated to cover developments in the last couple of years. They interviewed a lot of folks to improve the new version including the Gregory Brothers, the guys behind Epic Rap Battles of History, and George Hrab. He mentioned trying to interview POGO but how that was at the time he was dealing with visa problems.

We hope to have Randy back on, soon. Better yet, we invited him to join us at our next brew day when he is in town, as he sometimes gets out to the DC area throughout the year.

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This is the second of five interviews we recorded at Balticon. In this one, we were joined by good friend of the show, Chris Miller. From the first it should be pretty apparent this was the second interview on the same day, recorded pretty soon after we talked with Nate so the first beer of this episode was our fourth or fifth of the day. That beer was a bourbon barrel aged Devil’s Milk from Duclaw. We are both immense fans of the regular version of this beer, the barrel aging did all kind of wonderful things to it.

This was the first local beer we shared on mic at Balticon. It was a new brewery to Chris. He definitely was thinking of picking up some more local beers like this to try during the weekend or possibly even to take home with him. We talked a bit about regionalism, a favorite topic, and how many of the originally local beers have been becoming more available more broadly. This also put us in mind of travel, especially some of the TSA inspired insanity we have to endure.

Speaking of local flavors (all jokes aside), Chris enjoyed some crabs the evening before the con got under way. As much as he might have enjoyed the flavor, he simply couldn’t see the effort picking them as being worth it. John strongly disagreed, explaining how when crabs are boiled right, they are well nigh addictive inducing a haze of shelling and eating that can be highly satisfying.

Chris talked about how much he enjoyed socializing with friends he doesn’t see but once or twice a year. Sadly, the early gatherings, not even proper room parties, were not well received by the hotel staff and security. By the time we caught up with Chris, he had shifted more into the working portion of the con, presenting, participating, attending and networking.

We turned to the subject of steampunk after John revealed his belief in time travel, largely because of the fun he has at Steampunk World’s Fair. Chris has largely been skeptical of the genre but has found some reasons to start to coming around. He mentioned Stephenson’s “Innovation Starvation” as the kernel of his new thought, that the optimism lacking elsewhere has perhaps moved into the retro-futurism of steampunk. He admitted he may not have read widely enough, that he did enjoy “Clockwork Fagin” and seemed willing to try “Steampunk“, edited by the Vandermeers.

John related steampunk and the ethos of the Enlightenment that informs some parts of it to the modern maker movement. Chris articulated the second artist affect as the basis of his quibble, that as much as he may enjoy the aesthetic and some of the deeper inspirations, like the stories and essays n the Steampunk magazine series, it is the derivative work for the sake of being derivative that perhaps makes him grumpy in general on the subject.

Speaking of those deeper themes, I mentioned a conversation I had with Chris’ collaborator on The Secret Lair, Dr. Pamela Gay. She tracked this trajectory of how technology goes through epicycles of being accessible and understandable to seamless and sealed and back again. The maker movement and steampunk represent the same urge back towards hands on technology after decades of increasingly miniaturized and unrepairable commodity electronics.

Speaking of Dr. Gay, Chris explained this astronomical phenomenon, one that looks like a dancing Kermit the Frog, some apparent effect from light rejected by black holes and only recently perceived and understood. More than just the astronomy that is her day job, she has gotten creative in pulling together story tellers to help explain this work and make it accessible. Chris explained how this feeds into the distribution of information, the inspiration and collaboration that gets him excited. It isn’t computer or network technology but how it supports and enables hands on work. John attributed a lot of this to native curiosity, the desire to look below the surface.

Chris touched again on why he comes to Balticon, to take water from the well, to delve into such deep ideas. John agreed, how despite being tired coming into the weekend, how much he delighted in the whirlwind of ideas around him. I expanded on how as much as there may be similarities with the stream of ideas at the day job, a convention is still a very difference, renewing experience since it is much more free form, arising spontaneously from people’s passions.

Chris related this to his plans and ideas for his podcast, The Secret Lair. He is trying to intentionally cultivate the same intelligence and depth rather than producing just another lightweight entertainment cast. I realized a strong parallel between the New America podcast and Chris’ goal, that these are both about what is behind and informs the more readily apparent news and events, whether that be from the world of public policy or from geekdom. John suggested that The Secret Lair is also a smart filter, an excellent effort at taste making and curating in a sea of entertainment on the net.

We returned to the subject a beer, touching on how the Devil’s Milk warmed and anticipation of the tasting of one of Chris’ earliest brewing efforts, one we made with him, a clone of Midas Touch, his old 2700. As great as this beer was, Chris was very open about his instructive failure beer. As we were challenged by the black rum stout we made, and have discussed before, the Rassilon’s Emphatic Spittle ultimately ended up being useful as a learning moment but not so much for the sharing. Chris gave a rundown of the recipes he’s made, good and maybe not ready for primetime, he has made since.

We expanded on the learning experience. Chris has picked up a copy of “Designing Great Beers” and John mentioned again his love of Randy Mosher’s writing, especially “Radical Brewing.” That same spirit of learning and experimentation also had John yearning to get into micro distillation. Well, working on getting it legalized for a starter. In the meantime, we chatted about infusions as a legal way to express the same creativity with spirits. The Austin episode of the TV show, Drinking Made Easy, included some great material on infusions. All three of us love the zaniness of Zane Lamprey and crew. Chris did suggest that we could express some of the same silliness by advocating the drinking game rules for Evil Overlord Dice, a game he and his collaborators are working on.

Chris bridged from there into how he as a brewing dad is being open with his kids. We agreed that doing so demystifies alcohol and hopefully encourages a more responsible balance when they are old enough to partake on their own. Even if they don’t enjoy the end product, many of our kids have in common the enjoyment of the science, the craft and the sensory experience of brewing.

We took a turn to the silly towards the end. Chris mentioned some new recipes his resident artist at the Lair, Natalie, has come up with. He explained quickly the reference behind the name for the banana stout he is thinking of making soon. It reminded us of the peanut butter cup, coffee stout from Willoughby we had earlier in the con. To complete that thought about beers that shouldn’t work but do, we mentioned the peanut butter and jelly witte beer Eric and Bret at Growler’s made that we had at the beer dinner many months ago.

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This is the first of five interviews we recorded at Balticon. In this one, we were joined by good friend of the show, our sole interview from last year, Nathan Lowell. Nate is one of our very favorite authors not in the least because of his incredible reading voice, his devotion to and engagement with his readers, and the love of craft beer we helped kindle in him this time last year.

Nathan really put his thumb on why we enjoyed this year’s Balticon so much. He shared the impression of a first time attendee, Monica from Galileo Games‘ “Have Blaster, Will Travel” that the crowd is so intelligent. John concurred, describing the typical sorts of conversations we encountered all weekend long, leaving us a bit wall eyed. Many of these great chats were aided in no small part by a greater than average taste for beer.

Speaking of beer, the one we cracked to pour out with Nathan was the 2X from Southern Tier, their double imperial milk stout. We mentioned some of the other beers we had collected by this point in the con including Victory’s Dark Intrigue and DuClaw’s X1. The owl eyes on the label of the former made John think of a particular table Mia spotted in the dealer room, intriguing art pieces who materials are best not dwelled on any more than we already did.

Nate was under a time constraint, we caught him before what sounded like a great panel. He explained it was a hot seat panel, one where the audience got to ask the writers why they did what they did in particular works. Speaking of participating with other authors, larger market and small, led Nate to contemplate a bit of inside baseball within the publishing industry. As a full time author now, it is clear he takes the business of cons, as well as all the other work needed to grow an audience, very seriously whether he is recognized for it or not.

John compared this experience with the time he spent in the music business. While the shape that the creative industries will take on into the future is far from clear, hearing these two talk makes it clear the old ways simply aren’t working any more. For the opportunist, for the go-getter, there are obviously ways to not only survive but to thrive. Nate really put his finger on some of the aspects of how e-books and online channels are offering new openings for those with the desire and ability to exploit them.

For the reader, Nate offered some ideas of how best to tackle discovery in this changing landscape. There are still taste makers, ways to find the interesting peaks and abiding values within the long tail.

Taking a brief break, we cracked open a second beer, the Heller-bock Saphir. The hop note in this beer was very intriguing, reminiscent of hallertau. The flavor was so interesting, it had Nate re-thinking his usual attitude towards hoppy beers. This reminded me of how much Nate’s view on beer in general has changed in the last year. When we first interviewed him, he was certain he could not enjoy beer but had really only ever partaken of macro brews. The fact that he enjoys any craft beers, hoppy or not, is pretty phenomenal.

In just that short time, Nate clearly has developed a sense that is guiding him well through his beer quest. He explained his request of the staff at Calvert Wine & Spirits, our local Balticon treasure. His taste was well bolstered by his experience, knowing how to articulate the flavors he likes. One of the things he picked up was DuClaw’s Euoria, one we like that reminded me of a story I have around it relating to my first trip overseas.

The amazing flavor DuClaw gets out of the grain bill in the brown ale Nate picked up made us think of some of our recent brewing experience, getting unexpected flavors from grain alone. We are convinced that much of the candy sweet in many Belgians is not candy sugar but actually from the local malt. The sweetness and attention to craft made John think of Ayinger Blonde, another light and well made beer. Nate mentioned the summer ale, the Sea Nymph from Heavy Seas, that sounds similar. I brought us back to brown ales, suggesting that the Brooklyn Brown is another flavorful beer in the same class as Euforia.

John took the discussion into cooking, asking Nate his thoughts on the commonalities between it and brewing and beer. Nate felt a bit differently about beer because of all the years he has not been able to partake. It sounds like even without that perceived former barrier, he finds more to uncover, discover and enjoy than in wine by comparison. We chatted for a bit the one offs, like we are starting to see here from Flying Dog. We also reminisced fondly about the year round and seasonals that don’t travel as far, that we go back to again and again when we have access, like the Great Divide Claymore that I recently got to try.

The desire for a hammock after a nice beer and a sandwich brought us around to Nate’s years in the Coast Guard. We love any excuse to hear Nate’s stories growing up near and working on the sea. So much of his fiction is informed by these experiences, the deep dark of space travel having so much viscerally in common with the real life perils and thrills of the deep blue. He so clearly teased out the shared experiences, quotidian and terrifying, that inform the ship board rhythm and dynamic.

Nate tied his reflections on his early life with his work later on in education. John and I both admire what Nate has done to teach teachers and were delighted to here him share so much of that work with our listeners, too. There are clearly parallels in how he approaches that profession as his current one, as a writer, that what we take for granted warrants re-visiting and re-thinking constantly to find better ways forward. The challenges inherent in distance learning resonate with just the basic challenges in education, that any number of barriers can form a distance between students and engagement. The ones we normally think of, in terms of network access, overlap strongly with the work I do, the policy work to which John is now routinely exposed in his media work at New America.

Nate distilled down from these questions, ideas and challenges the core need for a teacher to pursue their calling, just a student. Well, that and some content to teach. Really, though, this informs the thought we wound up on, that all learning is distance learning. It is the comfort of the teachers with their tools, not the measurable span from them to the student, that requires constant improvement and evolution of a teacher’s skills.

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Once again we ended up recording after work as a concession to both of our insane schedules. This did allow me to see the rather nice selection at the convenient to work Barmy’s. We settled on two big bottles to share, both beers new to us which was especially important to John who was three beers away from an average of one unique beer a day for the past year, since he started using Untappd.

The first beer we opened was the first new Dogfish Head for either of us in a while, the very cola-like Urkontinent. Reading through the notes on this beer at the brewery site, we guessed correctly that the spices come each from different continents. Further it was a collaboration between folks at the brewery and tech loving fans as a celebration of entrepreneurs around the world. John though the base style was a new one, a Cascadian dark ale, one of our recent favorites. According to the site, it is actually a dark, Belgium dubbel. The notes you’d expect from that type of beer are almost entirely missing.

Despite the 8% ABV, the beer was not terribly boozy. The cola impression lasted from first pour through the taste, no doubt aided by the cola colored head and the residual sweetness of the honey. The herbal complexity was a little harder to pin down but pleasantly so.

John was disappointed to note this beer is in a new style of bottle, an embossed one that is off putting to home brewers wanting to re-use the glass. John favored them especially which lends to an equitable split when we divvy up our empties I tend to prefer the 22 oz bombers, the more traditional long neck like shaped bottles. The shape of the bottle also seemed a little last graceful than the old, unmarked glass.

Something roasty did emerge as the beer warmed but I didn’t think it was all from the malt. I suggested it might be the combination of herbs. Regardless, it put me in mind of the Palo Santo Marron. John agreed, noting that the Palo Santo seems to be getting more mellow with each successive batch. We theorized that the custom barrels used in this beer are being leeched of their volatiles, making them less palate crushing as John put it. John had Palo Santo at Magnolia’s out in Percyville on draft right when the beer came out.

We gave cheers to our semi-regular audio engineer, Ray. We enjoyed his excellent work supporting this recording and the change in environment, being able to sit across from the same table. We mentioned that we hope Ray will be joining us again to help field recording at the marathon that is Balticon, or more accurately Balti-thon.

This provided a nice segue to our main topic, to chat about our past experiences at Balti-thon and what we anticipate for the upcoming one. John explained we intend to use all the social media to share our experience at the con.

One of the folks we hope to pull on mic is Randy Chertkow, of Beatnik Turtle, who I’ve had on my other podcast many times and to whom I’ve introduced John, when he headed out to Chicago. John shared some more of their beer questing experiences while John was on that trip where he first met Randy. Goose Island sounds like it was quite an experience, getting to see some of the inside fun the brewers clearly enjoy. John and I have both enjoyed really smart, wide ranging conversations with Randy and look forward to where we will end up, starting with beer as our spring board. We indulged in a thought very much inspired by our recollection of discussions past with Randy, about the relationship between truth, beauty and science.

We promoted one of Randy’s books, The Indie Band Survival Guide, which is coming out in a second edition, soon. John made an excellent comparison, to the actual tome in the Douglas Adams classic, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. The IBSG is immensely pactrical, meant to be used, read and re-read, dog eared, and carried in an instrument case from gig to gig.

We re-visited our first beer before moving on. The root beer and licorice notes definitely emerged more as the beer warmed. There was something in the mouth feel, too, that was similar to high quality licorice candies from Europe that are smoother and less sweet. John called it a powder coat of licorice herb, which reminded him of certain herbal liqueurs.

Before we cracked open the second beer, we chatted a bit about some attention from a friend of both of ours, Cory, brought to my other podcast. This spurred a conversation about the episode in question, the roles of various people in all kinds of change.

I manged to tie this discuss our next beer, as a sort of spur to power, especially given the mention of kinds on the label text of the Moylan’s Hopsickle. It reminded us both of the thumbprint of Oskar Blues but different, not a sweet or oily.  All the higher gravity pale ales from that brewery, Gubna and Deviant Dale’s, have a certain something that is an amazing consequence of the insane hop regime. Even the imperial red, G’Knight has it. It also put us in mind of our past discussions of the 120 Minute with friend of the podcast, Evo, who we hope to have back on at Balti-thon.

We finished up by speculating on which beer John might choose for number 365, the 120 Minute being a natural idea. I also put forward the Worldwide Stout as I shared that with some friends recently. It is one of my favorite three beers from the brewer along with Burton Baton and Olde School. John got us on a reflection on time, place and rare treats, mentioning the Utopias and talking about asking after the Pappy van Winkle earlier in the day.

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Another unusual set of recording circumstances, we recording in the New America studio space so we could fit in this week’s show around a particularly crazy schedule on John’s part. The focus of the show was equal parts old and new, doing our first vertical tasting of one of our homebrews and a 2-for-2 since each of the bottles of my oatmeal stout, the Sun-dial in the Shade, were 22 ounce bombers.

Thankfully, the first bottle, from the very tail end of 2010, was still more than adequately carbonated. We both noticed how much hotter the older beer was, being 7.7% ABV versus the batch after it, at 5.5%. That particular difference is a strong endorsement for using a refractometer as it would have helped us catch and prevent over diluting the batch from January of this year.

John compared the 2010 Sun-dial to a Port City Porter he enjoyed recently. I was grateful for the comparison considering how nervous I was making this stout. It was the first beer I brewed after putting my brewing kit back together, getting much more into beer than the months before this beer where I was just assisting John in brewing in his kitchen. I shared some of my thoughts on why a stout as a first beer, resonating with Andy Sparks recent suggestion on Basic Brewing Radio that every brewer should have a stout recipe to go to.

John’s first beer brewed was a brown ale, one of the recipes he considers a go to recipe. He expanded on the idea, really en joying the notion of having a set of recipes in hand that a brewer knows well and can make again and again. For me, this was the first of three beers that chart out a stronger push into designing my own beers. Even though this beer started as a clone, as did my dubbel, I have happily been evolving them on my own.

John offered that clone recipes are a good place to start, that imitation can be instructive without getting in the way of making something uniquely our own. I thought that this evoked a strong parallel in other pursuits of craft, such as painting. Our good friend, Bret the brewmaster at Growlers, has shared a thought from the other side of cloning beers that is encouraging. He freely shares his recipes because he very well understands that any given brewer can start with the same instructions and ingredients but end up with a very distinct end product. This suggested another parallel to me, of my wife’s cooking. Andrea may start with a recipe from whatever source but if it is something she enjoys making, she rapidly moves beyond referring to the recipe, opening up to experimentation and creative play with stock dishes she makes week after week.

John was curious about my sort of studied approach to some aspects of brewing, whether it is of a piece with my interest in programming. I explained that I think it has less to do with technology and more to do with the investment in practice required to improve at any demanding craft or pursuit. I related it to my study of Tai Chi and also to our protest beer from last Summer. I also suggested that a certain amount of competence in a given recipe supports a different sort and level of play in its making.

John described a model of how creative mess and considered contemplation, a sort of notional cleaning up of the mess, form a fruitful interplay. He felt you need to indulge both chaos and stepping back to edit and polish, relating it to the art of writing. I strongly agreed, digging more into the advantages of these two complementary aspects of creative work. Further I explained how ignoring the technical fundamentals can lead to frustration. Building a certain body of core technique helps cement and support progress and exploration on the purely creative side.

John brought us back to the beer, asking for impressions on it after it has warmed. We both agreed that it had a certain astringency, a tang, that was not unpleasant but perhaps a little surprising for the style. It certainly held its carbonation very well, one of the things I was most concerned with when making this first batch. I filled in some of the history around that anxiety and the improvements on my approach to charging I’ve made since. John contrasted that to his technique for charging, that we both now use the approach we each used on our very first beers. He dug into how the different sugars may also play a role in the resulting head formation and retention.

We next opened the 2012 version of the Sun-dial oatmeal stout. I explained some of the differences in the making of this beer, intentional and unintentional. For starters, we used far more grain in the making of this beer. The grain bill was supposed to have the same proportions of specialty malts but I was distracted and ended up adding up to four times the amount of dark malts. Despite that difference, I was surprised at how close this batch was in flavor to the previous year’s version.

John felt that the bigger roast notes and the more vigorous carbonation helped make up for the lower amount of alcohol in this batch. Even though the head subsided relatively quickly in John’s glass, we could see it was still fizzing pretty vigorously. I was more interested in how the differences evolved in the warmed, opened up beers as well as in how they both follow their own trajectories in the aging.

Speaking of aging, we talked about how patience can pay off. John shared again one of his favorite stories about how beer and mead makers differ in this respect. My own store of patience made this vertical tasting possible. John leaned a little more on the other end, that beer can be enjoyed relatively quickly. I thought it actually offers a good balance, that you can enjoy beer soon and you can set some aside to age and enjoy as it mellows. John said that he increasingly is thinking of making larger batches, which would help serve both aspects as well as offsetting the squeeze on our time these days to brew. I agreed that this is worth considering, especially considering how generously we share our beers.

I speculated on some further tweaks I might like to try with the next batch of this beer. I thought I might like to get a bit more sweetness, maybe using a short multi-rest, reverse mash but not to the same extent as that we used on our more recent brews, the porter and the dubbel. I shared some of my original thinking in selecting this recipe and building up some expectations of what I wanted to get out of this beer. Dogfish Head Worldwide Stout is one of the clones I also considered. While I am not entirely up to the challenge of an 18% ABV beer, there are still qualities in that beer I want to try to merge into my stout.

John dug a bit more into the challenge of making such a high gravity beer. Specifically they require more careful balancing of the much larger amount of malt involved. I agreed that making such a beer would be a fun design challenge as well as in the making. If we have the time, I think we could have a lot of fun with not just using hops, but all the sorts of elements that help here. We both have been meaning to get a barrel for experimenting with oak aging beer.

We diverted from beer, for a bit, to discuss the studio in which we recorded this episode. John shared his very earliest roots in multimedia. I waxed rhapsodic about how John’s hard work brings so much value to all of the work that goes on at New America. John agreed, expanding on the opportunities for digging into the news of the day with so many great voices, as exemplified by the new podcast, The Sidebar, that John has such a strong hand in. Just earlier in the day when we recorded, John was working with Rebecca MacKinnon, a colleague of mine who wrote “Consent of the Networked” and has done and continues to do such amazing, in-depth work. All of this was really a first hand way of explaining why both John and I have been so crushed for time, lately, for brewing and beer questing.

John offered another invitation to come and find us at Balticon where we’ll be on many panels and have a gathering where we’ll be sharing beers and more stories, including the very beer we tasted on this episode.

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This episode was an experimental Friday night recording. Whether you choose to believe it or not, John only edited this episode once. He explained he wasn’t going to edit at all but we couldn’t make it all the way through the recording without losing our train of thought at least once.

While John struggled to uncork his beer, I foreshadowed the idea at the core of our topic, by describing my Friday after a doozy of a week. I was able to indulge a taste for dubbels that no doubt arises from the anticipation of bottling my next homebrew. I did manage to enjoy a new to me beer, Ommegang’s Abbey Ale Dubbel. This continued into the beer I selected to pour out for the recording, Flying Dog’s Disobedience. As it happens, my description of the beer from earlier in the week inspired John to pick up the very same beer for this podcast. This beer reminded both of us of some of the first beers we really enjoyed, that opened us up to the beer quest, from Chimay.

John set up our main topic, inspired by our unusual recording day. He explained his upcoming milestone on the beer quest, since he started using Untappd around last Balticon. Not that he drank one unique beer a day, but on average, by the upcoming Balticon, he will have done so on average. He then dug into the role ritual serves in marking key demarcations, even as simple and humble as the end of the week. I observed how it is natural given our deep history with beer, wine and spirits that they would natural play a role in at least these kinds of rituals. That says nothing about the mildly mind altering properties of alcohol, how it can have a direct physiological contribution to our experience of important times and processes.

The initial take on the topic made me think of the god of doorways, Janus. John expanded on that point, about how the forward looking and backward looking figure is a clever, useful, even ironic trick. John recently read and was discussing an article about drinking and creativity, continuing in the vein of elevated or altered states. I interjected a cautionary note, that ritual in this context may serve a responsible purpose, to respect the intoxicating potential of alcohol and help avoid abuse. It made me think too of writerly advice from our friend Cory Doctorow when asked how he is so prolific, that you must avoid using alcohol, or any substance, as a crutch, something without which you cannot do creative work.

John pointed to another excellent example, the spiritualization of steel and sword making in Japan. He explained how this parallels my thought about success, that ritual helps maintain process and rhythm for consistent outcomes. This ability can be related even to homebrewing, to the same end in terms of helping us consistently exercise our craft.

He leapt from there to the writings of John Shirley who wrote about gray zones. These are areas where usual laws have no hold which provides a release for societal stress, like the safety valve on a pressure cooker. Ritualizing these needs in a social context, he suggested, can help exercise them safely. There are many examples easy to find, from tail gating to the sharing of any number of beverages other than the alcoholic ones on which we tend to focus, like tea or mate mate.

John touched on an idea I had been considering since we settled on this day appropriate topic. Rituals, in my experience, have to be alive, subject to adaptation and change as our lives progress and the factors in them which inform ritual also change. I offered an example from my life, from a job past, where we had a tradition of sharing single malt Scotch regularly on Fridays. When I left that job, even before I left, I moved on to other ways to observe the end of my week. There is a continuity in my persistent desire to share and explore, as well as mark a boundary in time at the personal scale.

John dug a little more into my current tradition, of indulging in a big bottle of beer now on Fridays since it allows me to explore a wider variety of beers than if I limit myself to small bottles. I had been limiting myself to buying big bottles only to share, occasions that occur much less frequently. John explore a bit of a tangent around his experiences returning to Roots Market rather than going to his usual Pinky’s and Pepe’s. We cannot say enough good thinks about Roots and what they represent. They even had a great suggestion to John, that we leave out some fliers near their beer cases about the podcast.

A verbal flub of mine, welcoming all the different dietary approaches led a further tangent about artificial DNA. We are both fascinated by the potential of this technology. In retrospect, something that didn’t even occur to either of us while recording, beer itself could be described as one of the earliest forms of biotech. The robustness of synthetic DNA and the possibility of debugging biological systems are tantalizing, especially how it may feed back into the science of yeast cultivation.

I finally managed to lead the conversation back to our discussion of how the size of a bottling impacts variety. Finding ways to indulge in large bottles as well as small is a boon, especially at places like Roots that have an especially good selection of big bottles, many of which figured into our earliest episodes. The idea of pleasing variety made me think, of course of Calvert Wine and Spirits which we love to visit while at Balticon. Speaking of, in many ways that event typifies a lot of the state of mind we’ve been circling around, in terms of memorializing changes in context, surrounding and socialization as well as the opportunities to share experiences, especially of beer, in new ways.

John related the increased variety to how older norms of modesty, much like the constraints of our county’s wacky distribution system, mean that we are more easily thrilled, like glimpsing a flash of ankle. He reminded me of a similar discovery Andrea, my wife made, while out of the county, an hour or more away visiting a friend. The suboptimal selection in the county and how we struggle to find new and tasty brews to try made us both think about the role of sacrifice.

Mentioning Balticon several times, it finally sunk in what an excellent example in many ways this event is of what we’ve been discussing. It only comes once a year. We work there on familiar things in new surroundings, with different people, and learn entirely new things. So many of the friends whose acquaintance we renew almost exclusively at this convention are also such epicureans, affording us the opportunity for example to enjoy new shared experiences. John described a story we wish we had managed to record with Nathan Lowell (whose story telling prowess you can enjoy for yourself at Podiobooks) of the simple, traditional joy of making beans. That story made me think too of how many of these foods and experiences around them involve a lot of what we had been discussing throughout the episode.

We wrapped up by coming back to our impressions of the beer, especially as it has opened and warmed throughout our discussion. John compared it to a recent experience with his cousin, Kat Scratch Beaver of the Rage City Roller Girls, at Tuscaroro Mills. Her husband shared a thoughtful, small ritual that invites the yeast and other sediment in bottle conditioned beers, abbeys and others, into the taste.

We closed with an invitation to find us and share beer and stories at Balticon.

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I opened a Mendocino Seasonal Bock since it was part of the six pack I was drinking this past week to earn the ridiculously hard to acquire Six Pack Badge on Untappd. In addition to being a great Spring beer, it is from a brewer whose other offerings, including their Imperial barley wine, I have very much enjoyed. John’s beer choice was informed more by our topic, Batch 666 from Appalachian Brewing Company. Both beers may have been different points of a similar and very tasty continuum. John’s favorite, the Ayinger Celebrator, also falls on this same spectrum of malty, sweet beers.

John set up our topic based both on his recent TV viewing of prepper shows and a conversation we had some time ago with friend of the podcast, Chris Miller. The idea is that being a home brewer may be of great advantage should we reach the end of civilization. I added that even barring a complete collapse, there are some advantages during more run of the mill disasters. That was certainly the case during the spate of storms we’ve had over the last couple of years in the greater DC area.

As home brewers, it isn’t just our equipment that is useful. I explained how home brewing really cultivates a strong spirit of ingenuity. The sort of invention that helps save a beer can also be well applied in normal disasters as well as the end of the world. That includes both the use of what we have to odd ends but that the product of our efforts has value beyond just a tasty drink. John suggested fuel is a nature next step and that reminded me of the conversation I had right before the show with Andrea, my wife, about how she’d prefer spirits. Without a government, during the apocalypse, there wouldn’t be any barrier to home distilling right along with brewing.

John expanded on the even greater breadth of values that distillants would have, not just for fuel but also for medicinal purposes, for barter and more. I suggested that having a still as well as a setup for brewing would grant the survivalist a lot of flexibility. You could push your various kinds of sugars to different applications depending on what you have and what you need.

Teasing out something John said about recipes for disaster, I posed to him the question of what sorts of beers, specifically, would be best in primitive surroundings. He immediately thought of wet hopped, harvest beers. That plays into the limitations that would apply in terms of the ability to properly dry hops for long storage. Big beers, of course, also naturally fit the bill as the alcohol helps keep the brews stable. John also wondered what we might end up trying if hops weren’t available.

Speaking of alternatives begged by the situation, John then thought about perhaps harnessing solar power as that would allow you to save your fuel for other purposes. There is a huge resonance between that idea and a story I saw a while ago of an artist/researcher who built a solar powered laser cutter and a 3D printer that fuses sand. Really, though, the input into mashing and boiling is agnostic of fuel or energy source. We are lucky that in extremes, we are only limited by the amount of heat we need. John mentioned Growlers‘ stein beer as an example, wood fired and using stones for thermal transfer. There was also a very old story we shared on the blog, of early Celtic trench beers, also wood fired but not even as sophisticated as stein beers.

We finally hit on one of the best understand advantages of brewing in uncertain circumstances, that it is a good way to handle water that isn’t entirely potable. Boiling is of course a requirement of brewing but the conversion to even low alcohol, small beers helps with keep those liquids safe to consume for a long time. The storage isn’t just limited to the finished product or the larger vessels we have, John shared a great idea of using cleaned long necks and a capper to easily make safe water more portable. That parallels a story he shared about macro brewers using their production lines in past disasters as a means of making safe drinking water more accessible.

This whole turn of the discussion made me think of the way many craft brewers are greening their endeavors. That sustainability works now for lessening environmental impact but in a resource constraint situation, means they are that much more efficient and self sufficient. The idea of such a brewery as a stable effort made me think of how a well established one, even at the end of the world. could act as an anchor to rebuilding societies. John expanded on that in terms of many more of the inputs and outputs of a brewery can help with reviving a collapsed community, whether that be to improve soil, help with water management or even contribute to the basic food supply by enriching the breads that can be made.

Chooch interrupted us to share how to give cheers in Estonia.

John’s before the break point about maximizing energy made me think about Vernor Vinge’s recently updated series in his Zones of Thought universe. The new sequel to Fire Upon the Deep, The Children of the Sky, deals with with a collapsed human society on an upcoming alien society and their partnership, rebuilding and improving. In that instance they combined some high tech, a microwave gun, with some ancient tech comparable to the way Romans heated their homes. New Belgium, as another eco brewer, is part of an amazing tradition, past and on into the speculative future.

John then shared one particular prepper technique to capitalize on the high energy density of rice. It made him wonder about the applications of that well preserved packet of 5 gallons of rice but also what benefit might be derived from carefully storage of whatever grain is available. That made me think of how good storage can make the minimum level sustenance so much more affordable for a good amount of time. I did wonder if malting and storage would be affected by the lack of technology, that we might naturally end up making darker beer and spirits. John reminded us how the lightest of beers, pilsner, was originally an accident that introduced an alternative to the previously much more dark, rich beers before then.

We hadn’t touched on yeast but my wife had that question of how brewers at the end of the world would get ingredients. Hops, water and grains are fairly obvious but so long as you can get a bottle conditioned beer, you can krausen yeast from that, much like cultivating a mother sponge for sourdough. This made John think of the close relation between baking and brewing. I suggested that started with a single yeast variety that may not be best for beer, it would not take long to evolve that strain and improve it. A single strain useful initially to beer and bread could very rapidly produce two or more that work better for each specific end product.

John reminded us how the short generation time of yeast leads to a quick domestication even of wild bugs in the environment. Many brewers moving into second hand breweries face a challenge of eradicating the old brewers strains so their own particular strains can stand a chance and contribute as desired to the new house style. Yeast has clearly been co-evolving with us as long as the more obvious domesticated animals we think of. What Sam Calagione was able to do to produce Ta Henket is a testament to how much the cultivated yeasts stick around in the environment. It serves to remind us that the deep history of brewing, the modern abundance we enjoy, and the far future really are all tied together.

John then thought of the various yeast varieties he has really enjoyed using. In particular he has been thinking about lagering, something I may be able to offer up my sub-cellar for. We then transitioned into a quick brewing update on our latest, the second iteration of my dubbel recipe. Since we were speaking of yeast, this beer provided an appropriate update given the strong yeast contribution to the recipe. I suggested anything from New Belgium as a bottled example of this anyone should now be able to try.

John closed with a great philosophical thought that ties together so much of what we talked about throughout this whole episode.

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We were joined this time, after our latest brew day, by Chooch. We explained how we believe that math and beer may be the source of profound insights and applications, such as the secrets of super luminal travel. Really it is our humorous justification for being so bad at bistro math, especially after sharing a few rounds.

The beer we brewed was the next iteration of my dubbel, the Dye-Cast Dubbel. As random as our sampling was during the day, we tried to tease out a common theme for an accidental St. Patrick’s Day episode. We started off with Brooklyn Brown Ale though a Guiness or Murphy’s might have been more appropriate for the day. Chooch had a great quote from his nephew who is of Irish decent that to drink like the Irish, if your beer is light enough to dye green, you are doing it wrong.

We recounted some of the beers we had while brewing, starting with the Val Dieu Grand Cru, a beer I had been hoping to share for some time. I was gratified that everyone enjoyed it as I had hoped. We dug a bit into what it means for a beer to be a grand cru and how this results in such a wonderful diversity within the class, like the difference between this one and the North Coast Grand Cru. The Val Dieu is a Winter grand cru and that is clearly one way grand crus can vary. Small wonder we like what brewers have borrowed from vintners that represents their best offering, a high selective and variable group rather than a style.

The second beer we enjoyed was the last one that John brewed, his Jinx-proof vanilla porter. It was wonderfully chocolately, with subtly interwoven vanilla notes. As Chooch said, John knocked it out of the park with this recipe. I explained what was a little bit different in the grain bill, the lack of black malt which in no way detracts from the resulting beer. In fact, I suggested that the absence of black malt lets the amazing character of the chocolate malt to come out from first pour rather than on warming as is often the case with dark beers. John figured that the use of a multi-rest mash for this beer helped leave some complex, unfermentable sugars that work well on the palate. John described some of the tweaks he may try the next time he makes this, include just a dash of black malt, some bourbon barrel oak chips, and a very small measure of cocoa nibs.

Chooch told the story of how he discovered Viv, his wife, is a bourbon lover. They sampled some beers at Mad Fox when Chooch realized their bourbon barrel wee heavy was overpoweringly boozey. Chooch was put off by the heat and the straight bourbon flavor but Viv finished the beer. John suggested that Viv’s enjoyment of barrel aged, sipping rums may well dispose her to a good bourbon, too. This inspired a bit of reverie by John about Cherry Tree Cola with a good spiced rum.

We turned our attention back to the beer we were drinking, the Brooklyn Brown. Chooch offered that it may be a good gateway beer, being very accessible. I countered that it might be better as a second step after an uber pils or some other craft quality lighter beer. The very drinkability of this beer is why I got it, as part of my still ongoing beer diet. It was a good contrast to more flavorful beers like the Great Divide Claymore and the Flying Dog Gonzo Porter. We dwelled a bit on how my brew diet has been working since we last discussed it.

I mentioned cheating a bit on my diet last weekend for Chooch’s birthday and how quickly I now bounce back. Speaking of that party, we described the intensely strong Colossus from Duclaw. Chooch and I were both surprised at how balanced an almost stunt beer at 21% was. John wondered if our recent inclusion of a refractometer in our brewing along with the multi-rest technique for mashing with which we’ve been experimenting may be key to this kind of balance.

Another discovery John thought we made through our experimentation was the under appreciated contribution of the base malt in many Belgian beers. I said that this would be entirely consistent with their secretive and sneaky practices. I reminded everyone of the story John has told before, about how many Belgian brew masters used a different yeast to prime their beers to hide the primary yeast.

On the flip side, we clearly were able to appreciate how judiciously the specialty grains can be used. I compared them to spices and other strong flavored ingredients that are best used sparingly. The multi-rest also revealed some very interesting color interactions that I don’t think we saw with the prior version of the Dye-cast. John gave the last version of the beer mad props, comparing it to his 2nd favor beer, Brother Thelonious (ranking right behind Celebrator.) I took the opportunity to fill in the origin of what started as a clone of Pranqster, that my desire to try a new grain provided a point of departure that ultimately has proved very rewarding. Needless to say, we are all eager to taste the finished Dye-cast 2.0.

Since we had been talking so much about North Coast, the next beer we opened, after taking a break, was their grand cru. I believe it is based on a strong golden, a tripel, versus the other grand cru we discussed early in the episode. We’ve talked about house styles, with hops and grains, and John’s first thoughts on this pour were about the almost maple sugar syrup note that is so common to many North Coast beers. Even though this beer was not brown, I thought it was a good book end with the winter grand cru as the weather the day we recorded was so Spring-like.

Chooch saw a Sam Adams Spring sampler on the shelves, speaking of the change of seasons. That got us talking a bit about Sam Adams, including what we thought was a recent acquisition of theirs, Angry Orchard. As much as they are right on that blurry line between craft and commercial brewing, they still honor their playful spirit, like Due North and Tasman even though the latter doesn’t compare as well as we’d like to other red ales, like G’Knight. Chooch asked if we’d tried any of their imperial series, which we have.

We turned our attention back to the grand cru. Chooch definitely picked up on fruit notes, more apple than banana or red berry. I pointed out that this ability to coax such flavors from the yeast makes for the natural pairing often seen in beers like Unibroue’s Ephemere. Unibroue is another brewer, very much in the Belgian vein, that doesn’t spare much worry about categorizing their various offerings. John clarified that tripel is a relative term, referring to three fold more sugar of the regular version of a beer so the starting point remains variable. Chooch wondered if imperial was comparable though initially thinking that referred to just hops. John and I have had imperial beers that aren’t just big on hops, more a subjective label the brewer applies that is again only really relative to the base versions of a given style.

We discussed how this looseness could be confusing. Conversely, even fuzzy classification offers provide relative mileposts for those cultivating their palate and exploring. John pointed out the other side, that brewers can feel constrained by labels. Certainly a good deal of creativity flourishes with this sort of limitation but that shouldn’t curtail the adventurous who want to try something bigger, more different or entirely new in terms of beer style.

John mentioned how he’d struggling judging beer because of his receptivity to defying convention. I countered that I think there is still benefit to judging, in terms of getting some expert input into cultivating a craft. John agreed, offering an example from Cory Doctorow‘s podcast in terms of tightening up feedback loops and how that accelerates the development of skill. He further related that to our recent experiences with my new refractometer.

Chooch wondered if there were pillars, certain invariants despite the looseness in categories that we just rambled on about. I answered that perhaps in the context of some brewing cultures, there are clear recognizable notes and elements that are reliably there. It was one idea I found interesting in Charlie Bamforth’s latest book. On the other hand, there are clearly brewer’s, like many Belgians and most American craft brewers, who clearly just enjoy playing too much to be pinned down. John felt that even the formal style definitions, like BJCP, do in fact evolve, allowing some flex. John also offered an insight from his reading of Randy Mosher’s “Radical Brewing” that what some of us have taken for granted as recognizably Belgian, the lambics, are in fact relatively modern developments. John so well explained how brewing is constantly in flux due to socio-historic influences.

I asked Chooch what he considered to be a milestone. The definition he gave was personal, that he could always reliably identify and enjoy wheat beers, like hefeweizens. This topic overall reminded John that he had an interesting discussion with Eric at Growlers of how malted wheat has seen an interesting diversification, that there are now wheat malts suitable for brewing that are almost as varied as barley. I didn’t find this too surprising given the other examples we’ve seen of unusual grains, like the gluten free beers and Hitachino Nest Red-Rice. (Yes, I know I completely flubbed the beer’s name.)

I thought that each person’s pillars, then, may hinge on that individual recognition, especially rooted in their first experiences. We discussed this idea a bit further, about how especially early on, may inform tasting, the cycling between trying new tastes at the edge of one’s palate then returning to known enjoyable flavors.

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We opened chatting a bit about recent experiences at our common employer, a bit of foreshadowing of the main topic of this show. We were very fortunate to bring our respective experiences from the combined years we’ve been podcasting to a new space. In that spirit of parallels to our main topic, I mentioned that we will both be bring our love of beer and of podcasting to Balticon.

I opened the Great Divide Claymore, a beer I’ve been looking for since Nathan Lowell mentioned it. John opened a Posca Rustica, a beer about which he was a bit nervous for being a style neither of us usually enjoys. Thankfully, the beer was as wonderful as the story behind it.

The larger bottle beer, the latest in a series John has been drinking on the show including Lips of Faith and Southampton made me think of a couple of things. First instead of running the risk of having to pour out too old beers in my cellar, I have decided to rotate some big bottles into the small ones I’ve been enjoying as part of my ongoing brew diet. Second is a particular big bottle that I didn’t think I would find. The beer that haunted me after enjoying it at Moeder Lambic during my first trip to Brussels was not one I thought I’d be able to find, the Val Dieu Grand Cru. I was thrilled to see it on a random visit to Gillys. I compared it to other grand crus I’ve recently enjoyed.

Talking about larger beers to share in turn reminded John of Pappy van Warhammer, another hint of our main discussion. John was able to purchase one of only a very few growler fills of this beer. He will be bring that to Balticon to share even more widely. He also just recently bottled his vanilla porter, Jinx Proof, and will be bring a growler of that to our BYOBS as well. I added I still had our grand cru which I’ll happily bring along with some of my latest iteration of my oatmeal stout and some of the 2nd batch of my dubbel which I’ll be making soon. If you are coming to Balticon, bring as beer you made or one that has special meaning for you along with a story about your beer.

We then turned to our main topic. The main collision John had in mind when the topic occurred to him was an event, Tinkering with the Tomorrow, put on by an awesome program, Future Tense, at our employer. An earlier event, Here Be Dragons, figures in the story of how I changed careers, of John’s first introduction to New America, and my meeting of one of my heroes.

One of our coworkers organizing this DIY event as part of the collaboration with ASU and Slate wanted to include beer. One of the invited keynote speakers, Dale Dougherty, is known by us to be a home brewer. He is a friend in common with Carl Malamud, the man responsible for our open source fellowship. Dale is one of the folks who offered to brew a version of the recipe we developed for that, Our Nation’s Attic. Dale’s interest in home brewing is clearly part of a larger overlap, as evinced by a Make TV episode John recalled where the hosts did a quick and dirty brew demo. John explained too how hackers have reverse engineered and created interesting other brewed drinks, like Club Mate.

Unfortunately, neither of us had a beer we could donate and there was not time to make something new. John had the presence of mind to reach out to our good friends, Bret and Eric, at Growlers to invite them. They very graciously turned down participating at another beer event, a larger one at RFD, to be the only brewer at our event. The reception at the end of the day to their beers was overwhelming, I think affirming they made the right choice. My boss in particular was asking questions about Growlers’ ability to host events and of me about how we could get members of our program out to suburban Maryland. I suspect Bret’s and Eric’s participation may yield some new customers, ones who will no doubt love the brewpub as much as John and I do, for the beer and the food both.

Overall the event want fantastically well, thanks to the speakers our colleagues invited and the small contribution I was able to make in connecting them with other people I know in the hacker, maker and DIY spaces. In particular I was thrilled to get Tiffany Rad involved who related how much she dearly wants to come back for a future event. John explained very well both how gracious a speaker she was as well as how amazingly fascinating her talk was. Tiffany typifies the idea John had in mind with this topic, as an iconoclast, as someone reaching beyond obstacles and arbitrary roles, barriers and compartments.

Chooch interrupted us to explain how to give cheers in Germany.

We continued our discussion of inviting the amazing things that can happen when bringing disparate parts of your world together. John expanded on that idea so well and I tried to give a shorter summation to keep that larger explanation at top of mind more easily. I also related these wild juxtapositions to beer, how it makes so many ideas and relationships so much more accessible than those sorts of things might be on their own. I dug a bit more into the social context beer can provide, the brew pub I mentioned in Columbus that did this at Ohio Linux was Barley’s.

For our final thoughts, John brought up the Sunoco beer exchange. We were surprised at first but anything that helps improve access to different beers is definitely a good thing. A large fuel company no doubt has the kind of clout to push through the necessary legislative changes to allow this model. This is a welcome potential expansion in the face of other areas restricting beer again, like the ban of filling growlers outside of a brewery or brew on premises restaurant like in DC. I noted how it resonates with the idea of a CSA as the time for us to start picking up my household’s share draws near.

The more I thought about this, the more it made me think about stories and culture of the road, especially trickster on the road from Trickster Makes This World. For John, Cory Doctorow’s Liberation Spectrum came to mind, in particular how it depicts truck stop culture. In talking about it, John reminded me the of the different perceptions on time and distant between the US and Europe. I speculated about the differences in car and rail culture between the two, as well.

We finished up by returning to our beers, sharing our thoughts on them as they warmed and we drank off the last of the dregs. My thoughts were turning towards the cycle of the seasons with Spring approaching. John was thinking it was about time to read Wild Fermentation given how pleasantly surprised he was by this beer and what it perhaps says about the expansion of his palate.

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We started off with a little bit of catch up as I had been traveling since the last episode, to Brussels and Paris again followed by the Eastern Shore of Maryland. John described the shop (which I suspect is Ye Old Spirit Shop) near Flying Barrel where he picked up the beer he brought to taste, the Nice Chouffe from La Chouffe. This is their dark winter beer. John mentioned they also make Urthel Hop It but that is actually from Brouwerij De Leyerth. I brought another Flying Dog, speaking of Flying Barrel, to taste, this time their Wildeman which is a hybrid like the Hop It but of a farmhouse ale with an IPA. Here is the video that has the correct pronunciation of the beer’s name. I mentioned a couple of other Flying Dog beers I’ve had since the last episode, the Gonzo and Road Dog porters.

We chatted a bit more about work, following on for the reason I was out at the Eastern Shore, for an annual retreat. One of the more enjoyable aspects of going there was spending time with my coworkers in a different milieu. As we discussed last time, we are both lucky to work in a place where there is a better than average appreciation of beer. That figured into our evenings at the retreat with a very well stocked beer fridge to accompany games, movies, meals and great conversations in our evening hours.

We wandered back into talking some more about farmhouse ales, of which the Wildeman does an excellent job representing along with the other half of its admixture. I explain how surprising I found this given how strong Flying Dog’s house hop style is. We chatted about what the farmhouse funk puts us in mind of, how it really does evoke the senses and experience of work and rest on a farm.

We also expanded on what little questing I got to do while traveling. I wasn’t able to find anything particularly crazy, enjoying a Chimay Blue followed by an Orval, both of them brown ales. I was confused when we recorded but with the benefit of the Internet can correctly say the golden ale my companion had was the Duvel. In Paris I didn’t get back to Cafe Martini but did treat my coworker to an excellent evening at Le Devez where she ordered a wonderful wine the name of which I never knew. It was a white which surprised me as I tend to favor the reds. John related my liking of red wine closely to the notes in beer I toward which I tend to gravitate. We spent some more time appreciating the equal depth of appreciation to be found in wine as well as beer.

We moved from there into one of our main topics, what it was in our experience that kept us brewing when so often the first experience many who try it have is so bad. I explained a conversation I had recently that echoed with many others I’ve had on this topic. A lot of people have told me how they tried to brew when young, in particular in college, with bad results due to the lack of experience and the rough environment for keeping the right level of fastidiousness needed to make beer well.

The first batch of mead I made was a similar experience so I teased out what it was that made me come back to it so early on to find success from the second batch onward. One idea is the desire to make something that we otherwise cannot find out in the world. This meshed well with John’s own early experiences, especially his first reading on the topic first Sam Calagione’s “Extreme Brewing” and then Randy Mosher’s “Radical Brewing.” John’s first result was better despite some messy incidents along the way. I realized why John is still nervous to this day about the jump when bringing a wort up to boil.

I explained a little bit more about that fateful second batch of mead in the context of making a brewed product that was even more rare than the still limited selection of meads available today. My college roommate had a large, heavy glass bell jar that we used to excellent effect as a primary. This may still unconsciously inform my bias towards glass vessels in brewing. My early mead making also served to highlight how key access to knowledge, practical and theoretical, is to being successful early on.

John offered an excellent label for another thing that keeps us both brewing, that participation in kitchen magic. John deftly identified that it is the astonished pride of being part of the magical experience that is a strong pull back in. He expanded too on the role of knowledge but also the explorer’s heart to make and re-make discoveries even when the access to information is thin or entirely absent. He also put his finger on the deep historical roots which I complemented by suggesting that brewing is also infinitely timely, being remade generation after generation to reflect tastes and trends.

Chooch explained how to give cheers in Wales.

We shifted to our second main topic which has the practical application of knowledge and how we come by that in common with our first topic. John told this great story about Benjamin Franklin’s science-informed trick of calming water with a small measure of oil and how that relates to using a dash of hops for their oils to help prevent the pre-boil jump.

A Kickstarter recently concluded successfully that sought funding to assemble a documentary of a similarly knowledgeable luminary in the worlds of beer and spirits, Michael Jackson, using material from his television series, Beer Hunter, and some additional footage recorded towards the end of his life. We each shared our first exposure to Jackson’s writing and work. This led us to talk of a contemporary and a similarly integral figure, especially in homebrewing, Charlie Papazian. John surprised me by explaining how Charlie’s early writing was shared explicitly as an open work, really typifying the spirit of sharing that is so deeply woven into the world of homebrewing. I had only noted that the documentary will be openly sourced.

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I poured myself a bottle from the 2nd annual batch of my Sun-dial in the Shade Stout. John almost chose the same beer. He has been sharing the ones I gave him but decided to taste something else to make his supply last. I have already set aside some for the vertical tasting against the previous batch and for our customary beer gathering at Balticon. John paid me a compliment in describing his taste of this beer and shared his relief that the use of black patent malt alone isn’t responsible for the challenging flavors in the black rum stout we made.

Overall I am very happy with this iteration of my oatmeal stout despite a couple of small missteps. One was that the batch ended up bigger than I had planned. The resulting alcohol was lower as a consequence. If I had had my refractometer at that time, I suspect we would have caught this mistake. The other more serendipitous accident was pushing far more specialty malt into the beer, including the black malt with which we’ve had trouble in the past. One definitive improvement is that this version of the beer charged well whereas the prior one took a while longer and was still undercharged even many months onward.

We spent a good amount of time discussing our first experiences using my new refractometer. We used it to make the vanilla porter John will be bottling very soon. You can use this measurement tool to take gravity readings all through the brewing process, with only a few drops of wort. Despite the increased quantity of samples we took, we actually felt much more liberated. Knowing what the gravity was all throughout acted as a safety net, a set of bumpers preventing under or overshooting by too much. John put it well, saying it really brought us much more into the moment of brewing. I explained how it made me think of cybernetics, a field where feedback loops are key.

The beer John had was the New Belgium Cocoa Mole, part of their Lips of Faith series. In discovering a source for this beer, John also found some place to get another bottle of the Southampton cuvee which we’ll taste at some point with the North Coast grand cru. This beer and the Sun-dial both fall on the darker end of the color range. They also share a surprising sweetness. The Cocoa Mole evokes many flavor notes with which American palates may not be familiar but that both of us enjoy. John described it as having a really food like quality, a richness that complements the chile incredibly well.

I suggested that there are ways, in particular accessible to brewers, to develop an appreciate for the flavors in this beer. You can get cocoa nibs meant for brewing. Like tasting whole roasted coffee beans, you can crunch on the nibs to get a sense of the complexity of cocoa that the addition of sugar in candy making overwhelms or otherwise masks.

Our main topic of discussion was how we keep at the beer quest when we have less time to spare. It was inspired by John’s recent job change and how as rewarding as working for the employer we both now do is, the work is also highly demanding. As much as we struggle to find time to record, to hang out and to brew, we’ve been cultivating ways to invite space for savoring beer and continuing to sample new brews.

Despite, or because of, the difficulties in getting good beer and variety of it in our home county, John had a good moment of mindfulness, noticing Barmy Wines right near the office. I explained a bit more what I meant by mindfulness. Simply taking the opportunity revealed a new source of beer with an excellent choice. Being so close to where we spend most of our weekdays, the wherewithal to simply walk into a random new place has paid off. John had a nice chat with the owner, in addition to what they already have on offer, they are willing to order anything special we might like. John noticed in particular the collaboration between Dogfish Head and Sierra Nevada, Life and Limb, as well as other harder to find brews, a literal wealth of surprises. I have had similar experiences with Gilly’s which we’ve talked about before. They are right near my metro stop close to home and that ease of access has helped immensely in keeping a good supply of beer on hand.

John extended that same awareness of surroundings to simply having the sorts of things on hand that help. He described a couple of insulated bottle carriers that very easily fit into a brief case or messenger bag. Having something on hand to keep beer safe and cool encourages through readiness selecting beer wherever it might be found.

As exhausting as our workplace is, in the best possible way, we are very fortunate to be surrounded by coworkers who appreciate good beer. Much of what the thinktank does includes events planning and execution, sometimes as evening receptions. Invariably the selection of beer our employer sources for appropriate events is more than your usual fizzy, yellow fare. I generalized that into other experiences I have had in approaching employers to set at least a slightly higher bar, like Sam Adams Boston Lager and  Sierra Nevada PaleAle, rather than just getting whatever is cheapest in quantity. I have had good luck in just being willing to ask and converse about more interesting beer. John recommended drawing parallels where possible to appreciation for wine to help explain that there are some people who are at least as discriminating with beer.

Travel is one obvious way to keep the search for beer going. We have certainly talked about both of our travels, undertaken for work, and how we use them as an opportunity to try local and regional flavors. With just a little additional effort in trip planning, time and opportunity can be carved out for a one or two new beer experiences a trip. For those with extended social networks, travel is a good reason to reach out, to leverage regional and local guidance for the beer question.

In our final thoughts, John explained how he injured his finger. As traumatic as that experience was, there was a silver lining, finding a BTS (Burger, Tap and Shake) right across the street from the hospital where he got stitches. My first thought when John told me about this place and his initial guilt over ordering what sounds like an amazing burger was how there are times when we genuinely do need the comfort that derives from well made, good tasting food. John compared that to the seen between Neo and the Oracle in the first Matrix film, where the cookies she is baking, one of which she gives Neo, server this same purpose. The beer John had, the Smutty Nose Old Brown Dog, was warm and comforting in this same way. It made me think of the growing appreciation I have for brown and dark beers, like the Dogfish Head Palo Santo Marron.

I had one more thought on inviting variety, that just keeping a good supply natural allows more beers to overlap, to have more than just a six pack of one thing around at a time. John compared this to the practice of cultivating a wine cellar. I amplified that very apt idea by noting that as beer drinkers, we often keep two cellars, one for short term storage and enjoyment, another more like a wine cellar with bottles set aside for longer. My newly continuously stocked short term cellar means I am also buying beer more frequently, hence seeing more of the small batches from Flying Dog, many of which I have shared on the cast. The most recent small batch I picked up was the Wildeman.

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We started off discussing Downton Abbey for some reason. I promise we don’t spoil anything except perhaps the end of the last season.  Actually, the reason was a bit that Craig Ferguson has been doing every so often recently, where he speaks as if he is one of the richly realized characters from the show. I explained how I got hooked over the hopliday break on watching The Late Late Show with my wife.

We did finally turn to beer, something conspicuosly lacking in both Downton Abbey and Craig Ferguson’s show. John opened the Southern Tier Hoppe. We’ve had some of their other hoppy beers in the same vein as this one including Unearthly and Gemini. Gemini in particular is ridiculously tasty as an unfiltered blend of the other two that has a wonderful mouth feel on top of the strong, fresh hop flavors.

I once again poured a Flying Dog. I mentioned having the barrel aged Gonzo Porter earlier in the week. The beer I had in this episode I believe started as a small batch in kegs only. I was delighted one of my last visits to Gilly’s to find the Kujo in the bottle. I read the color text which is perfectly matched to the Ralph Steadman art and the beer itself. The aroma and flavor compared very closely to a coffee porter that Scott Roche shared with us at Balticon last year.

John wondered if Pearl Necklace was the code name for this imperial coffee stout. I had seen enough tweets from Flying Dog to know that the Pearl Necklace is their oyster stout, anohter one that I am not certain they have bottled but hope they choose to soon.

We discussed an ingredient that we felt to be unusual in a hoppy beer, a malted white wheat. Neither of us had encountered it before but the contribution to Hoppe was very clear.  I guessed it might be similar to torbid wheat and that getting some to use in a recipe would help figure out how best to use the sweetness it introduces. I speculated it might be a good addition to the next batch of John’s English mild, the Clarke Kent.

We discussed the dark Flying Dog beers, expressing our appreciation for their skill in working with the flavors of the dark, roasted malts. John reminded us of The Fear which is remarkable as much for the handling of the pumpkin as the pairing of that with a darker beer. All the same, we were curious about how coffee as a flavor and an ingredient works in beer. I couldn’t really recall the taste of Mikleller’s Beer Geek Breakfast, I’ve had it too long ago. John suspected that different preparations of coffee, especially cold brewing, would affect how the coffee layers into the beer in different ways. The tanin contribution is undoubtedly a key variable, the beer’s own grain astringency probably amplifies any tanic notes from the coffee. I compared that to mead where a strong, tanic coffee wouldn’t be as overpowering. John offered another example, the sharp tang of a gueze complementing the reduced tartness of raspberry that has been processed suitably to be used in brewing.

Chooch explained how to give cheers in Iran.

It has been a while since we shared an update from the beer quest, in particular from our various travels. My own most recent trip, to Paris, didn’t include much beyond Cafe Martini near Place du Vosge for the beer lover. John has been traveling to New York regularly for work and has managed to check out a couple of venues.

Bling Tiger had been recommended to me by several friends in New York. John beat me to it and shared his impressions. Not surprisingly it was full, even for a weeknight. The ambience was incredibly welcoming, extending to a high degree of courtesy in trying to reach the crowded bar to place an order. It sounded from his description much like The Ginger Man but with an even better, more welcoming atmosphere. Word of warning, the vast array of taps are numbered so a bit of research for the newer beer drinker may help encourage the welcoming vibe vs. a place with a less terse menu that is more amenable to reviewing and choosing on the spot.

The last thing John wanted to bring up were the highlights of the local and regional beers at Blind Tiger. They had the Chelsea Sunset Red, a casked red ale I’ve had before, and the Chelsea Black Hole, a stout that is also a gravity pour. The localism in beer mirrors well the locavore movement within the world of food. It certainly encourages a lot of great home grown efforts that are becoming more of a draw as we both travel more.

John found the other venue, Brinkley’s, just while looking for some place to grab lunch while working out of New America’s SoHo space. The happy hour was clever, rewarding those who could come earlier rather than later. Brinkley’s selection seemed to only include local beers, at least within the state. John saw Southern Tier of course, Southampton, Keegan Mother’s Milk, a BPA from Ommegang, SixPoint, Pleasantville and more. The bartender demonstrated the same sort of vibe as Blind Tiger, generously giving John an extra half pour. The food and atmosphere were a good match to lovingly selected beers.

Our work, John and I both work for the same not-for-profit in different groups, is trying to encourage people from across the whole organization to volunteer and help get the new SoHo event space running. John’s experience was the deciding factor that I will be trying to find a suitable event with which to help out so I can lunch at the appropriately nearby Brinkley’s. John went on to describe some additional attractions for those interested in sampling fine food and drink particularly in SoHo.

We shared our impressions beyond the beer quest of New York City. I suggested that New York is the very definition of cosmopolitan. Some good guidance helps make the best of that, as the city is large enough that it may take some effort to find the best spots. John compared New York to the vibe in our hometown, DC, and the next large metro center, Baltimore. While he loves his hometown, he thought there are some good lessons to be learned in the contrast to New York.

Our final thoughts were also on catching up, a past event we attended and a future one, in the same venue, towards which we are looking forward. We had an amazing beer dinner at Growlers that was initially prompted by our anniversay interview with Bret and Eric. The theme was breakfast, lunch, dinner and dessert. John and I were both gobsmacked not only by the very intentionally crafted beers that really hit the notes of each tpyical meal so well but the sublimely delicious food pairings as well. We spent a good deal of time discussing the beers and food both.

Apparently, one of our listeners came to the dinner, too, but we didn’t manage to meet them. We suspect it was Jonathan, a local listener whose contacted the show but we don’t know for sure.

John convinced his wife to not only let him go to the next beer dinner, but also will be joining him. It is a Valentine’s dinner, of course, and if you email Growlers right now, you may still be able to get a ticket. Ironically enough, I will be traveling that week thanks to a very permissive wife. I will look forward to John’s update as much as the rest of you.

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John and I sat down for a one-on-one chat which we haven’t done in a while. Work has been hectic, especially for John, so recording a low-key conversation over beer was perfectly in order. John incorrectly guessed my beer from the video chat as a Smutty Nose. It was a Flying Dog K-9 Cruiser but John had his turn to show me up, politely, for getting the name of the artist who does all of this brewery’s labels wrong. Ralph Steadman is an amazing, gonzo even, artist who brings an appropriately frenetic imagery to the big, bold beers from one of our local favorites.

John poured an amazing sounding beer, the Southampton Cuvee de Fleurs, an ale brewed with flowers and rose water. His warm up cocktail was some home made ginger ale with Basil Hayden’s bourbon. John has been experimenting with making sodas and the ginger ale, his second soda, was his first success. As it turned out, John was sad he opened the Cuvee de Fleurs as it was definitely reminiscent of beers John and I have shared on mic before, like the Southern Tier cuvee series 1, 2 and 3. For such a delicate, pale gold ale, there was a lot of complexity, perhaps even from an oak conditioning like the Southern Tier ales to which John compared it.

Talking about the possible wood contribution to the Southampton, we shared our impressions of the Balvenie Caribbean Cask single malt we had at our latest outing to Founding Famers. We also enjoyed the Pappy van Winkle 23 year that same evening. John suggested we try to line up a vertical tasting of the Pappy van Winkle expressions. We might end up doing so at the newly opened Founding Farmers in Rockville.

I wondered if the Southampton was in any way similar to the green tea beer we tried in the last couple of episodes. While there were some similarities, John found it to be very distinct. For such a delicate beer, it had all sorts of odd notes and hints. This definitely piqued my interest in trying it. I also wondered if there was something similar to the Longmorn 16 which I shared with John previously. He agreed with my suggestion of it being pastel in some way, like candies made with floral oils, essences and extracts.

I loved John’s visual comparison to a very typical American beer, how the juxtaposition of that created a counter-intuition that reminds us of our biases. As much as we both agree with many of the industrial problems highlighted in Anat Baron’s documentary, reminders to keep thinking about and re-visiting them are useful to ensure we don’t get jaded.

John waxed poetic in trying to explain a haunting character of the Southampton. I didn’t find that surprising given our long historical and cultural associations with the rose. The many, deeply layered meanings arising from the co-evolution of this singular flower inform a gestalt which not surprisingly has such a haunting quality. I wondered at how well the recommendation engine in Untappd could get at these deeper evocations, suggesting other beers with such wonderful complexity and meaning.

While John tried to answer this question about Untappd’s take on this beer, I transitioned us to discussing some beer books I’ve been reading. I explained how I juggle a few books at any given time. I just finally finished a book after a year reading it, “Beer and Philosophy” by Steven D. Hales. Taking so long is unusual for me so I tried to identify why I did so with this book. Regardless of the challenge, it was a worthwhile read someone with a philosophy background may find an easier read but for everyone it highlights some thinkers who are interesting in and of themselves as well as how their work informs many aspects of beer.

The next book I have just started on beer is Charlie Bamforth’s “Beer is Proof God Loves Us.” This book is immensely readable though still not without its challenges. Bamforth is the Anheuser-Busch endowed professor of brewing science at UC Davis. He has a take on the industry different from “Beer Wars” that again begs reconsideration of the market even if ultimately we still may not entirely agree. Regardless, the book is a much more fluid read, undoubtedly because of the stronger narrative voice, informed by Bamforth’s desire to express a more autobiographical bent.

Even where we might differ with Bamforth’s views on the big breweries, just in the few chapters I’ve read so far he raises some other questions, especially when it comes to the international markets. I really appreciated the background on how InBev grew to the point where it was able to acquire one of the large American macro-breweries.

John agreed with the value in challenging voices like Bamforth’s, that can expand conversation in a respectful and approachable way. John has heard Bamforth on The Kojo Nnamdi Show where it is very clear that Charlie genuinely has a comparable love of beer, despite our differences. I cited some examples from my readings so far that highlight the differences, not just about the market and history but also in taste. Bamforth has respectfully challenged the heavy use of hops by Ken Grossman of Sierra Nevada and is a key critical voice of the otherwise enthusiastically received notion of extreme brewing espoused by Sam Calagione of Dogfish Head.

One area where the early chapters of Bamforth’s book complement the market criticism in Baron’s film is his discussion of labor. John put his finger on how Thatcher’s union busting may have gone too far and the way this relates to similar concerns with American unions. John has been to London and saw firsthand the diminishment of tradional pubs and the beer and culture that is part and parcel. He is looking forward to returning, to see what sort of revival there may have been, spurred on by craft brewers. I mentioned some of the cask beers I’ve had that seem to give some hope, especially the ones I’ve regularly found at Thirsty Bear. Bamforth’s discussion of this history fills in many factors and even reminded me of the campaign against saloons here in the US that was the seed from which prohibition grew.

Chooch interrupted us to teach us how to toast in France, including the appropriate response.

John described a fascinating, beer related find during a recent antiquing outing. The index of beer was a hand bound, crowd sourced work put together by bottle collectors divided into several interesting categories. What brought it to mind was thinking about the current state of the beer market and how this book shows that there has been a much more active history than we may be aware. John rightly refers to many of the breweries that started and ended since prohibition listed in the index are genuine ghost treasures. Such a strong reminder that what we are experiencing now often has happened in very similar form before.

We returned to contemplating our respective beers as they had warmed during our discussion. The malt character of the K-9 Cruiser really opened up, the honey note getting stronger. John had finished his beer and returned to his ginger ale and bourbon. Speaking of soda, he teased about future efforts and putting together an episode where we discuss his experiences and pulling me in to collaborate and garner some experience. From very early on we wanted to involve my sons in soda making and I was grateful John got a jump on the learning curve as we’ll be able to apply his experience to drastically improve the kids’ enjoyment of the project. I also expressed my appreciation for John’s plan to weekly make fresh soda as the quality of soda he offers already when he hosts my entire family is something for which I am very grateful. Fresh home made soda will be a real treat on top of such amazing hospitality.

John shared one aspect of soda making that relates well to the sensoiral interaction in making beer and how the greater simplicity and direct sense of the result should really make the process that much more appreciated by the kids. You don’t have to extrapolate as much from the intermediate products to the finished result. The boys should be able to much more easily imagine what the final soda will be like from tastings while we are working on it.

As direct as the link may be between those first tastings and the finished soda, there is still a requirement of patience, even if it is not as great as beer or especially mead. It reminded me of a Ted talk about the exercise of will, specifically with how young kids able to defer enjoyment, in this case of eating a marshmallow, ultimately had greater chances of success when the study revisited them ten years on. There was also a Science Friday piece recently that pointed out how willpower is very much like a muscle, that the right sort of exercise can indeed strengthen it. As if we need more reasons to enjoy brewing ourselves and to evangelize it to others.

Not surprising, the consideration of these more complex values and experiences put me in mind of indirect motivations, especially as discussed by the likes of Yochai Benkler as in his new book, “The Penguin and the Leviathan.” I guessed that many home brewers may find their motivation in many other places than any sort of cost savings yielded by making beer at home. John related an experience he had while picking up supplies at Flying Barrel. Their choice of a particular clone, Newcastle Brown, no doubt spoke to some personal, shared experience such that brewing up even a fairly common beer undoubtedly had more to do with brewing as a family than the product being cheaper than an already very inexpensive beer.

In closing, John renewed his desire to track down another bottle of the Cuvee de Fleurs. He thought he might have found it at Pinky and Pepe’s. I noted that I have a rare brew from North Coast Grand Cru that I think will pair nicely. John was entirely agreeable, especially as North Coast’s Brother Thelonious ranks very highly on our list of favorite beers.

I finished with a bit more of a tease, hoping to talk some more about John’s recent beer questing in New York. Maybe between now and then I will even get a chance to visit the couple of venues I had in mind to discuss.

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This episode picked up the second part of our conversation with Chooch after his recent travels to New Mexico. It is also the last episode of 2011–from all of us at Living Proof, we wish you and yours a happy and safe New Year and hope that you enjoy some excellent beer, responsibly.

The first beer we enjoyed in this half of the conversation was from Coronado, not a local New Mexican beer but Chooch was fooled by the name which is very common to the region. The brewery is from California and the beer, Red Devil, was a style we enjoy immensely, an Imperial Red. Despite the honest mistake, this is definitely not something we’ve seen on the shelves here. As expected, it compares incredibly well to Oskar Blues Gubna and G’Knight as well as the Peak Organic King Crimson.

Inspired, we waxed quite poetic about this very fine red ale, riffing on red skies and red tides. The style really typefies the inventiveness of America craft beers including how beyond creating a novel style, they manage to delightfully explore every single aspect of a given style. John amplified that by pointing out how Red Devil was not only unctious but also creamy. It made me wonder if there was any oat present or they got that delightful mouthful some other way. Chooch wondered if the particulates in the beer, possibly nut fragments or grain kernels, had something to do with it. We continued to speculate but enjoyed it all the same, despite not being sure how they achieved this effect.

We further indulged our pride in American craft beers, considering other beers made here without antecedent, like the various black ales that first appeared last year, including the Southern Tier Iniquity. I got very excited by the possibility of what might be next.

Chooch interrupted himself, John and I to tell us how to toast in Vietnam.

Coming back from the Beers for Cheers segment, John explained the distinctive sound to that bit and how he made it, with a devil chaser. I revealed my patent non-musicality, I blame all the beer we had on and off mic. I shared my gratitude for having an audio producer who is a musician that both enjoys and excels at making fresh loops and entire compositions. John continued to geek out a bit longer about how later generation software tools are using guided random generation to incredibly good effect.

I exercised my lame but awesome super power (one of many really) and brought this idea back to our topic, of beer. Given how consistency is not the strongest suit of even commercial craft brewers, I wondered how much fortuitous randomness leads to not just instructive failures but true serendipitous delight. We hoped that using four times the patent black malt by accident in the beer we brewed earlier that day will result in the latter rather than the former. I detailed the few things I tried to do to correct on the fly.

Chooch offered a great label, inspired diversion, and really put his finger on what I was driving at about attitude towards mistakes and surpirses. The cost to follow through is so low, the barrier to experiment is almost non-existent, so why not? John related how experience really helps make this so, that our first experiences as brewers may be laden with anxiety but keeping at it builds confidence and helps you work through the “uh oh” moments in brewing.

I teased out that experience also helps us build heuristics about how to deal with the unexpected. We’ll try to put together a brewing 201 where we talk about this intermediate level of brewing a bit more. For us, our Summer beer project has helped get us a large portion of the way along this curve. All the same, we are always facing new challenges that leave us scratching our heads and doing our best despite the learning curve. Chooch drew that out a little more, asking what we feel is the better way to acquire this helpful experience.

John and I indulged a little bit in the pay off of our Summer of brewing, the Castle Edition. Chooch further inflated our egos by explaining that the three beers Viv likes, as someone who hates beer, are Dogfish Head Black and Black, John’s English mild ale, and the Castle Edition of Our Nation’s Attic.

We went off on a tangent to geek out on food, including molecular gastronomy, elevating food science the way we do with brewing, and Chef Jose Andres, chef and owner of local favorites like Oyamel, Jaleo and Cafe Atlantico. I shared a tip from a friend in exploring excellent restaurants, a self made blind menu as it were. John agreed, relating a recent experience doing something similar by relying on a knowledgeable waiter’s experience with the menu and cuisine.

The final beer Chooch shared with us was the Santa Fe Brewing Company Chicken Killer Barley Wine. The brewer made some very bold claims about how this beer will re-define the style of American barley wines. This reminded me of the Platonic ideal of fruit cake that I discussed early on in the podcast as representing the expression of the sweeter barley wines. I have a picture proving such fruit cake does indeed exist. The Chicken Killer tends to fall on this sweeter end of the spectrum for this type of beer.

We spent a fair amount of time just discussing our respective experiences of the American Southwest. Fair to say that this part of the country holds a strong appeal for all three of us. We wondered a bit about how environmental factors in the region might contribute to a distinctive, local flavor.

We returned to discuss the beer a bit more. We really take apart the suggestion that this beer defines American barley wines. I took exception because barley wines do indeed vary, from the very hoppy like Duclaw Devil’s Milk to Dogfish Head Olde School. Regardless it was a big beer and we were happy to wrap up so we could enjoy some excellently made peasant food. Before we finished, we indulged in some more food geekery, revering how slow cooking can render an amazing alchemical transmogrification.

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On our last brew day, we absconded into my lab to record as we often do while the wort chills. The beer we finished making was the second version of my Sun-dial in the Shade oatmeal stout. Chooch joined us to help brewing and brought some beers to share and taste from his recent travels to New Mexico.

Version 2.0 of the Sun-dial may just narrowly escape being an instructive failure due to my inattention. It tasted wonderful all throughout the process, we discussed why I was concerned. We are optimistic that it will be a happy accident rather than a failure, time will tell.

Before getting into the beers Chooch brought, I shared some thoughts from my most recent trop, this time to Paris, a city sorely wanting for local beers. My quest there may have been entirely quixotic but I can’t help my beer loving nature. Wilfort was the only French brewery I sampled, their brown ale. It was truly unremarkable–I cannot even find any information on the brewery. My fellow beer geeks must have known already this beer was simply not worth it. Mid-week I gave up and simply enjoyed the other things on offer and there was much to enjoy in terms of food, wine and spirits.

Chooch asked me about the logistical side of my world travels, which thankfully are done for the year.. Budapest is an excellent destination for the beer questing traveling as the food is good and cheap and there are both good local and regional beers on offer. Brussels is not as cheap but not surprisingly a beer mecca, a must go destination. Despite my frustration at not finding any good local or regionalbeer in Paris, I finally found a likely spot for my next visit there, Cafe Martini. I warned that Paris is not cheap, except perhaps for breakfast which is traditionally just pastry and coffee. I would say the cost is worth it as the city is gorgeous and the food and wine is heavenly.

I had some excellent recommendations from my dad, a much more deeply experienced world traveler. I talked aboutone of those places,  Le DeVez, right near the river and across the street from Chez Francis, another one. Le DeVez is known for its Aubrac beef and the hostess was the first local who warmly humored my interest in both local beer and food. If you prefer seafood, Chez Francis is worth trying. Both places are near an excellent view of the tower and a short walk from the Champs-Elysees.

I led us to chat quite a bit longer on food, including foie gras and andouillette. This reminded Chooch of This American Life’s Annual Poultry Slam. I could not find the one to which he referred that discussed at length foie gras, in particular a fellow arguably producing a more humane but just as delicious version.

If you want a raw, rambling first hand account of Paris as I experienced it, check out my travelogue (day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4 and day 5.)

We finally got to why Chooch was on the show. He explained his recent trip and thought process around the beers he brought back to share. He found Jubilation Fine Wines as a local source after not finding too much in the way of brewpubs or taphouses. The profusion of West Coast beers was staggering–Deschutes, Stone, and more. He grabbed two New Mexican beers and two regionals we don’t get out here.

While I was chatting to cover the time it took us to pour, the topic of my various bottle openers came up. I have a lovely one made from recycled bicycle parts that was a gift from a fellow beer geek, Dr. John Cmar. In the lab, though, I use a Klein bottle opener from Bathshebao. It tickles my math geekery, beer geekery and, as a 3D printed object, my tech geekery.

The first beer we opened was a collaboration from Stone with a chef and another brewery. It was a Japanese green tea IPA, the proceeds from which went to benefit disaster victims in Japan. This was a very delicate, subtle beer, quite beautiful with bottle notes entirely in Japanese. We wondered if there might be a hint of seaweed in the beer but pinned it down to perhaps some extra tannins from the tea. This put me in mind of mead, in particular the use of tea for the necessary tannins. I suspect I could find a good single floral source honey to pair with green tea to evoke a similar, subtle and nuanced flavor. I think we agreed that this is not a complex taste you want every day but well worth trying if you have the opportunity.

Chooch asked with what food would we pair this beer. John came up with a catfish dish with green tea infused rice at a local favorite Thai restaurant, Thai Tanium. John completely won the food pairing round, the dish in question sounded amazing.

Pre-recorded Chooch interrupted live Chooch to explain how to cheer in Japan.

Beer number two was Monk’s Ale, a beer made at a monastery in New Mexico, Monastery of Our Lady of Guadalupe. The beer is distributed more widely than we expected, even to eastern Pennsylvania. They even offer direct internet sales where it is legal.

This time while Chooch poured, we took off on a tangent about New Orleans, both in jest and in earnest. There is a lot of good food on offer in Lousiana, if you like cajun, creole and seafood.

This beer definitely had the very recognizable yeast profile we’ve found in European abbey ales of all kinds. Of all the beer Chooch tried on this trip, this was his favorite. John teased out a hint of smoke or peat. There was a wonderful complexity, much more drinkable than the first beer. Both beers were only 12oz bottles, this one we could have enjoyed more though we recognized it was wise with its gravity to have only 4oz each.

John talked a bit about his own recent travels, to New York for his new job and a while back to Chicago where he met up with a good friend of mine, Randy of Beatnik Turtle. I mentioned Blind Tiger as a place I need to go (John got to visit it since we recorded.) I would also like to return to Heartland and The Ginger Man on my next visit to New York. We agreed that both beer and food questing can be integrated even into a busy, busy trip for work.

Chooch talked about how recent craft brewing is in New Mexico. He saw a piece in the city paper discussing it, about the camaraderie among the new, small commercial brewers. It also made sense of why he could not find much in the way of tap houses and brew pubs. John asked after other places Chooch could have gone or might go on his next trip to New Mexico, like Santa Fe and Taos.

Chooch admitted he doesn’t care for New Mexican food, that he has a much stronger love of Mexicali food rather than Tex Mex. This presents a challenge in his marriage as Viv leans much more strongly towards Tex Mex. John threw in another regional taste, Baja, which we all agreed on. The discussion reminded me of the wonderful fish tacos my wife makes, that combines a hot, mango salsa with a crisp, fresh slaw.

Another draw in terms of tourism is ballooning. Chooch explained why the annual balloon fest and race convenes in New Mexico. The early morning preparations not surprisingly coincide with local flavors in coffee and breakfast burritos featuring green chiles. The first flights, the Dawn Patrol, is a striking image as is the Mass Ascension, which is nowhere near as cultish as it sounds.

We returned to the beer about which we agreed with Chooch’s assessment as one of the best from his trip. We touched again on our appreciation for both the monastic traditions involving beer and the general historical and archeological context of the discovery of both brewing and baking.

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We were joined by Chip Burkhead from The Scotchcast. We took him out when he was in town a while ago to one of our favorite taphouses, Franklins. During that trip, Chip promised to send us another Cleveland beer, from Hoppin’ Frog. We were happy he made good on this offer and hopped on mic to share it with us. The beer he shared with us was B.O.R.I.S. The Crusher.

I asked Chip for his thoughts on where the flavors of beer and single malt overlap. He hasn’t had any beers that posses the same coffee or chocolatey notes from the stout we were drinking. I pressed the question knowing that of the three hosts of The Scotchcast, Chip tends to favor the smokier, peatier malts. As a point of comparison, I mentioned the Bunnahabhain that Michael Ireland, also of The Scotchcast, recommended to me when I first met him.

Chip surprised us yet at the same time didn’t by revealing that he actually didn’t like Scotch the first time he tried it. He explained that this had more to do with the low quality Glenfiddich to which he was first introduced. Once he acquired some more experience in tasting, the Fiddich flavor became a shorthand for a distinct but disliked note that he and his friends have found in other malts. Thankfully for our edification via his cast, a hand imported Irish drew Chip back into enjoying whiskeys, including the better Scottish single malts he now very much enjoys.

I took advantage of having such an experienced connoisseur on to ask about a malt I picked up the last time I was in Europe at the duty free. As it happens, Chip said I was incredibly lucky to find the Longmorn 16 and that I should make it last as it is as hard to come by as it is excellent. I promised to try to hang onto some of this malt until we next see Chip in person to share a bit in appreciation for his cast.

John asked Chip if his understanding of the history of Scotch matched what John has read. Chip related that those monks with the funky stills that John mentioned originally came from Ireland. Otherwise, he thought the description of malted barley bittered with heather was probably accurate. He added that the drying of the barley was the way the characteristic smokey and peaty notes enter Scotch as peat was such an abundant fuel.

Unsurprisingly, Chip favors light in terms of malt but otherwise hugely hopped beers. Actually, he enjoys an impressive variety of beers, including naturally enough the Scotch and Scottish ales. Another local favorite is Arbor Brewing Company. Sadly the last time some fresh beer from them was available to him, Chip was tasting Scotch.

I made an argument that there is no reason we cannot enjoy both beer and Scotch. I relied on John and Chip to help me remember that folk wisdom about the wisest order to consume the two. Of course, John and I have had some beers, bourbon barrel stouts, that combine a lot of the best of both beer and spirits.

We touched base on how the beer was opening up. John observed that there didn’t seem to be much of a hop note to it. I wondered if it was hiding behind the strong roasty notes in the beer. It is also possible that the hop was Willamette th

Chooch interrupted to tell us all how to toast in Costa Rica.

We talked for a bit about Chip’s experiences home brewing. His co-hosts used to brew with him, with another friend, Chris. One of the home brews they made took a prize at the state fair. We were absolutely fascinated with the idea of a rye beer with caraway seed. The inspiration was a dark rye bread. The result was unusual both for the caraway as well as for the dark, rich color and the light tasting grain bill. Chip seemed to remember including some oats for mouth feel though he wasn’t sure. As you’d imagine, they actually found the beer tasted very much like a large, liquid rye bread, so much so that Chip found it paired well with cheese and sausage.

The emphasis on the malt character in this beer reminded me of a recent episode of Basic Brewing Radio. They described the reasons you might brew a beer without sparging. Mashing at a fuller volume without rinsing the grains, especially for lighter beers, apparently can improve and deepen the grain flavors. Chip said he’d try to find the recipe so John and I could attempt a no sparge version. Doing so will require we go all grain but as we’ve been discussing, we are already pretty close.

Chip definitely shares our love of the history and archeology of beer. He mentioned Brewmasters, a show we love as well. His historical interests are quite broad, like ours, encompassing beer and spirits. He even used to make meads, like I did. I complimented him and his colleagues for the history they pull into their cast, the historical notes on the various distillers responsible for the malts they taste and describe. As it turns out, this was a very intentional element of the cast. Chip explained some of the challenges they’ve run into in doing the research into this history for the show. To be fair, the whole cast is very well thought out, providing the single malt enthusiast with a very complete impression of the Scotches they try in each episode.

John was curious about the business side of the distillers, informed no doubt by his reading and our recent viewing of “Prohibition” by Ken Burns. Chip talked about some of the recent developments in the processes, especially experimentation with wood management for the effect that has on the finished product. He mentioned Bruichladdich and Jim McEwan the master distiller there as being particularly innovative. John and I enjoyed the Bruichladdich organic earlier this year. His description of McEwan’s efforts reminded me of the distilling that Rogue is doing experimentally. There also are quite a few regulations and restrictions that lead to challenges and even what can be called Scotch. He mentioned Compass Box in particular having to struggle with to continue to label some of its expression as Scotch.

I was curious how the tasting of Independents fit into this aspect of Scotch. Chip happily expanded on what the Independent bottlers are doing, how they are effectively remixing existing malts. Chip was recently able to compare a Duncan Taylor bottling of a Macallan with an expression straight from the distiller.

We turned to the regional breweries, brew pubs and tap houses Chip would recommend to a visitor. He started with Great Lakes which we’ve tasted on the show before including the Commodore Perry, their Belgian wit, and if you can find it their Christmas Ale. Hoppin’ Frog is of course a brewery worth trying, notably the very beer we tasted is award-winning and their Christmas ale is great. There is even a barrel aged version of the Christmas ale. Thirsty Dog is one we’ve tried that Chip agreed is worth seeking out. As for brewpubs, Chip likes Fat Head’s which has a location near him and one out near Pittsburg though the beer for both is brewed in Cleveland. He mentioned the Rocky River Brewing Company which is nearby too. The brewpub I enjoyed in Columbus, Ohio is Barley’s.

We closed by discussing the contents of a Maryland, DC and Virginia care package we’ll have to assemble and send Chip’s way. I found some more of The Fear some of which I’ll set aside for Chip. Chip promised to send us more beer if he finds other brews of interest that are distinctive to Cleveland and Akron, especially other brews from Hoppin’ Frog. Chip mentioned that Thomas Vincent has strongly endorsed Hoppin’ Frog, emphasizing it is worth trying anything they make.

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We were joined by Chris Miller for the entire episode.

Before we got into the thirsty work of my recent trip update, we poured and discussed our beers for the evening. As a foreshadowing on our main topic with Chris, he had a St. Peters Sorghum Beer. The beers John and I enjoyed were a good introduction to my thoughts on Brussels. John had the New Belgium 1554 and I had the New Belgium Trippel. Both ales reminded me strongly of the many beers–dubbels, trippels, blonds, brunes–that I enjoyed every day during my week in Belgium.

The reason for my trip, a business trip, was the EU Hackathon. Some of you may have seen the video I shared the really captured the spirit of the event. My Untappd stream reflected almost all of the beers I had while abroad. The highlight of my trip was definitely Moeder Lambic, the one at Place Fontainas. Not only was there an amazing profusion of beers on offer but beer culture is definitely in the very DNA of this establishment. The photos from the very end of the set on my Flickr account are from this venue.

From early on in my trip, I shared how I learned what Belgians consider a black ale versus what we call a black beer here in the states. This experience was from Cafe Leffe and the beer in question was the Westmalle Abbey Dubbel. The 1554, which is very close to the black, or more accurately brown, ales reminded John of another New Belgium, Snow Day, that he had recently.

The best beer of the trip, bar none, a beer that still haunts me was the Val-Dieu Grand Cru. This is a specialty beer, on researching it, from the Abbey du Val-Dieu which may make it hard to find either through an online or a local retailer or importer. The top spot of this beer is saying something considering some of the others I had at Moeder Lambic like the Cantillon Rose du Gambrinus, a two year old framboise lambic, and the Kerkom Winterkoninkske. Bret, our friend and the brewmaster at Growlers, recommended checking with his friends at Halftime Beverage.

One of the other beers I had on the trip, a 12 year old Trappist ale, has just been announced as coming to the states.

Speaking of travel, Chris shared his thoughts on his travel plans for the coming year. He is thinking of trying to head out some place interesting at least once a month. Ideally 2012 will see some great reports from the field by him as well as another brew day with accompanying social time to hang out, relax, and catch up in person.

The subject of brewing with Chris again segued us into a brewing update from him. He shared his thoughts on a pale ale he made and several instructive failures from his experimentations since he last collaborated with us in the beer kitchen. The pale ale, a Bells Two Hearted clone from TastyBrew.com, sounded like a challenging beer while young but may be aging out to something very special, what John dubbed a “hop wine.” The impetus for an experiement so heavily hopped was 10oz of home grown hops from a friend of Chris’. John offered that the experience with this beer was very similar to his with the Green Grass and High Tides.

We ended up chatting a bit about what we’ll be brewing next. As fun as the idea of The Mongrel was, I think John and I want to put the Summer of protest beer behind us and return to familiar responses and new experiments. We are due to brew in my kitchen next. I want to tackle a recipe we tasted and discussed in our triangulation episodes, the Sun-Dial in the Shade Oatmeal Stout.

Chooch told us how to cheer in China, in both Mandarin and Cantonese.

We turned to the reason we invited Chris on, a discussion of gluten free beers and brewing. Chris shared his experiences and impressions from about half a month so far of drinking only gluten free beers. He reminded us why he is doing this for the month of November. In addition to the St. Peter”s he mentioned at the outset, Chris has also tried RedBridge, Lakefront New Grist, and Bard’s.

John has mentioned William Davis’ “Wheat Belly” before, when we were ruminating on the effectiveness of Evo’s brew diet. He brought it up again as being relevant to why wheat may cause some people grief even in the absence of celiac or an actual allergy. Chris offered a similar read that provokes thought around food culture and industry, “In Defense of Food” by Michael Pollan. In addition to reading and research, Chris is taking a very considered approach that includes journaling his experiences and impressions.

Bolstering the idea that there are unexplored flavors beyond wheat and barley, John had the Great Divide Samurai, a rice beer that definitely compares well to any beer, gluten free or otherwise. He has also brewed with rye and is a fan of its presence in spirits. Basic Brewing Radio had a fantastic episode on gluten free brewing that delved in the flavors available from these ingredients. Search for Desiree Knott of High Gravity in Tulsa to find the episode in question. All three of us are great fans of everything James and company do on that podcast.

Chris explained the thought behind the name he decided to brew under, Speculative Brewing, that captures the adventurous and experimental spirit he brings to brewing. If you want more from Chris specific to beer, check out his recent review of pumpkin ales. He is planning a similar review in December of Christmas and holiday ales. Feel free to participate in the conversastions around both pieces by contributing your thoughts on a related beer in the comments. John or I will add a comment with our impressions of Flying Dog’s The Fear, an outstanding and unusual local pumpkin beer. You can expand the beers Chris is able to review by donating and sending him something local or regional near you. That holds true if you want John and I to try something on mic. Either way, feel free to contact us for details of how to get us beers.

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We recorded with the help of a Google+ hangout again. Unless we can sort out why this cause some intermittent crackling on John’s rig, this will probably be the last time we use a hangout for this purpose.

Our guest this time was Evo Terra who joined us to discuss the beer diet he observed all October long. This diet was original inspired by the diet some monks go on during the Lenten season. John and I have talked quite a bit in the past of the strong tie between brewing and the monastic tradition.

In the intro, we discussed the beers we each were enjoying. Evo had the Ballast Point Sculpin IPA. I poured a Flying Dog The Fear which is also a bit of tease for our next guest, Chris Miller, who already shared his thoughts on some other pumpkins beers. John drank a Southern Tier Big Red, their imperial red ale.

Evo didn’t go it alone on his diet and I don’t just mean folks like myself who also went on some variation of the beer diet. His friend and weight loss doctor, Terry Simpson, observed his health all throughout. Terry blogs and wrote some of his own thoughts on Evo’s experience.

Evo explained how tasting a wide variety of beers helped him get through the month. He focused especially on breakfast appropriate beers, like Lost Coast Tangerine Wheat. We returned to the subject of what makes a good breakfast beer a bit later on in the interview. Anything with a big, bold taste appears to do well, to wake up the palate. Surprisingly this doesn’t really include hoppy beers. This dove tails a bit with the news that our local brewpub, Growlers, is indeed going to be making breakfast, lunch and dinner focused beers. Pretty much any wheat beer, fruited or not, or stout works well for first thing in the morning, Evo only found one exception, Blue Dawg’s Wild Blue which is apparently reminiscent of Malt Duck.

Early on, Evo had to overcome a tough adjustment. He did strike upon a tweak that got him through that dark day towards the end of the first week. When coping with that wall of the psychological effect of taking in less solid food, he experimented with increasing his sausage allotment a bit, the first time by ordering the bangers and mash (without the mash) from a local pub, Robbie Fox.

The results of Evo’s exporations in a staggering variety of beers and a diet focusing largely on sausage of all kinds and preparations speak for themselves. He lost fourteen pounds overall, a good portion of which was from fat. His blood chemistry improved as well, with his good cholesterol up, his bad down and his triglycerides cut in half. This made John think of the book, “Wheat Belly” by William Davis, though beer may be the exception. He speculated that the long history of cultivating and making beer may have led to a co-evolution, an adaptation we lack with other forms of wheat. Evo suggested based on conversations he has had with Terry that any calorie restricted diet may focus the metabolism on healthier processes rather than dealing with excess intake that leads to problems like elevated bad cholesterol.

Back to the full spectrum of flavors Evo tried, he said he thinks he is starting to understand sour beers. That reminded me of the Supplication from Russian River that I tried on my most recent trip, to San Francisco. I enjoyed visiting The Monks Kettle which offers both excellent food as well as an impressive array of beers on tap and in bottles. I followed the Supplication with the Moonlight Bony Fingers. We discussed how coming to an appreciation for sour beers isn’t so different from getting to like hops. For me, I think an entre are the wild ales, like the selection Greg Engert offers at Church Key.

Evo’s first meal after ending the diet was on the same day we recorded this episode. He enjoyed a decent but not mind blowing pizza. It did have sausage as a topping, a sort of concession to how his stomach may have acclimated to such a narrow diet. During the diet, Evo didn’t have any particularly strong cravings either when watching the food porn that is Man vs. Food or while out at a sushi joint with his family.

Chooch interrupted us to explain how to give cheers in Bulgaria.

I wondered if a spicy beer might have quelled Evo’s yen for a spicy tuna roll. Evo had such a beer at a local home brewing event put on by ASH. Drinking home brews helped expand the range of flavors Evo got to enjoy. He wasn’t able to count them towards his unique beers in Untappd because he chose to focus on drinking over data entry. Still even with the beers he didn’t log at the event or because he just petered out on the end of any given day, Untappd showed an impressive 100 beers for the month.

Now that the diet is done, Evo is going to try to keep his food intake down, essentially going into a maintenance version of the beer diet. The conversation devolved from there into some foods we all enjoy including more of the variety Evo worked into the diet given that he wasn’t being a strict purist on the sausage side of things. We all realized we have a common love of lamb with John in particular sharing his particularly carnivorous take on the Maryland Sheep and Wool Festival.

We talked about others who attempted the diet, in particular Charlie the Beer Guy. He unfortunately but understandably had to quit the diet around the 16th. There were considerable barriers to him observing the same diet as Evo rather than making concessions like Chris and I did. I expressed my appreciation for Charlie’s now defunct podcast and regardless of his failed participation in the diet. Some year Evo will bring Charlie to Balticon so we can enjoy beers together and no doubt record the experience to share.

We returned to the subject of home brewing, talking again about the ASH event where Evo enjoyed a pepper beer from Papago. We suggested that Evo’s particular palate would be immensely useful to the process of home brewing. John offered that in Arizona outdoor brewing could be pretty exciting, harnessing solar power.

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(Originally posted on The Secret Lair)

There are five things I look forward to in October. Pumpkin coffee drinks, outdoor campfires with friends, brisk hikes through the autumn woods, mugging small children for their candy, and pumpkin beers.  Each has its appeal, but since this year is the year I started homebrewing my own beer, it is only right that I take some time out to review the pumpkin beers I’ve had this year. In order of worst to best:

Punkin Ale

• Brewery: Dogfish Head Craft Brewery
• ABV: 7%

I label this one the worst because my expectations were so very high. I usually like Dogfish Head beers: I love their experimental approach to brewing and the passion with which they further the craft. Not every experiment is a successful one, and this one did not resonate with me. I think it’s only fair to note that when I picture a pumpkin-flavored product, I’m not thinking of the flavor of the raw pumpkin; I’m tasting the nutmeg, cinnamon, allspice and cloves, the brown sugar and molasses as well. Punkin Ale has none of this; it’s a straight up ale with pumpkin, no embellishments. Some find this to be a strength, but for folks like me who are looking for the best possible mix of pumpkin pie and beer, this is one to avoid. This makes me sad.

America’s Original Pumpkin Ale

• Brewery: Buffalo Bill’s Brewery
• ABV: 5.5%

To Buffalo Bill: Your sauce, sir, is weak. Hints of flavor come through, but not nearly strong enough. This is like drinking weak beer with a pumpkin-flavored crayon dunked in it. The ale itself leave much to be desired, and there is a strange not-beer not-pumpkin aftertaste that made me shiver. Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Ichabod Ale

• Brewery: New Holland Brewing Company
• ABV: 5.5%

This is where things start getting good. The brew has an excellent body and smooth aftertaste. The pumpkin and spice flavor is hinted at in the bouquet on the pour and is especially strong on the finish, but there is a no-man’s land in-between that needs bolstering.  If you are introducing a Bud drinker to pumpkin beers, this is a good one to start with, as it is not overpowering. For those of us who want stronger flavor, you’ll be happier with one of the next brews.

Post Road Pumpkin Ale

• Brewery: Brooklyn Brewery
• ABV: 5%

Excellent beer.  This is the beer that started me down the road of trying as many pumpkin beers as I could find this year, and when you taste it, you’ll see why. Heavy nutmeg and allspice notes on the pour give way to a surprising light-bodied beer that is full of flavor. The pumpkin and malt flavors are clear and clean, and the finish is pure warmth and spice. Highly recommended.

 Harvest Pumpkin Ale

• Brewery: Boston Beer Company
• ABV: 5.7%

I’d rate this in the  class with the Post Road Ale: a solid beer with excellent spiciness to the flavor. The difference between this and the Post Road is that this beer is has a heavier body and a darker pour; there are elements of molasses in the flavor with the nutmeg and the clove. It is also best served chilled, and is amazing when used to chase a Buttery Nipple shot.

Pumpkin Beer

• Brewery: O’Fallon Brewery
• ABV: 5.5%

This was a surprise. I’ve never had anything else by O’Fallon, but if the rest of their catalog is as strong as this one, then I’ll be looking for more. Excellent color and pour, sweet and malty with the right balance of pumpkin and spices. There is also a slight citrus finish with was surprising but pleasing nonetheless.

And the clear winner was…

Spooky Tooth Imperial Pumpkin Ale

• Brewery: Fat Heads Brewery & Saloon
• ABV: 9%

Amazing. Just amazing. This is a Big Damn Beer with intense flavors: strong spices, sweet pumpkin maltitness throughout with a stunning hoppy finish. I was completely blown away. The perfect pumpkin beer, falvorful from the onset and you’re nice and toasty (both from the flavor and the ABV) by bottom of the pint glass.  Highly recommended.

Have you had any good pumpkin beers this season?  What did you think?

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This episodes celebrates our one year anniversary podcasting.

In the intro, we teased a bit about our next feature, a return of Evo Terra to the podcast to talk about his brew diet. We spent a bit more time discussing the more work safe version of the diet I am undertaking in support of Evo’s project.

This past Wednesday we were at the event for which we’ve been brewing beer all Summer. I was at DC Brau earlier in the day that we recorded the intro picking up cases of The Public for the event. I snagged a growler of their Penn Quarter Porter for us to share on mic and am very glad that I did. The porter has some of the best characteristics of oatmeal stout and dry stout, really an exceptional local brew.

DC Brau cans, they are one of the smaller breweries to do so. I even took some pictures of their canning line. We discussed how craft brewers have overcome the initial stigma of canning. John even suggested that cans may better support certain flavors. I countered with a theory that the house style of Oskar Blues who played a pivotal role in changing beer enthusiasts minds about canning may have led to this association between cans and hoppy beers.

Given that this episode concluded one full year of podcasting, we spent some time reflecting on our experiences of the past year, both successes and challenges. It was a good opportunity to look ahead, to consider where we’d like to take the cast in the coming year. We have been discussing more travel and recording from the field and may finally be able to make this happen.

Before getting into our special feature for the anniversary show, we discussed Ken Burns’ Prohibition documentary series. It is well worth the investment of time as it not only delves into the history around how beer, wine and spirits changed in this country but several other surprising developments related to the 18th Amendment and its unintended consequences.

Chooch told us how to give cheers in Brazil and Portugal.

We were thrilled to interview Bret Kimbrough and Eric Gleason the brewmaster and assistant brewer respectively of our hometown brewpub, Growlers. They explained their backgrounds which for Bret has been a good deal of time involved with food as well as brewing professionally and for Eric a recent transition from homebrewing into commercial brewing.

We discussed the new 40-50 gallong pilot line they’ve installed in the brewpub. They’ve made some incredibly creative beers that have met with surprisingly positive receptions. They teased about what is coming next, including an oat beer and a beer inspired by the flavors of tequila. We were thrilled at how much Bret and Eric shared their thought process around the beers they are making, especially with the creative opportunities affording with the smaller pilot line, even getting into oaking some beers which would be as economical on a 7-8 barrel main system.

One of the things we’ve always enjoyed is how Bret brings his culinary background to the brewpub. He explained in his own words how well that collaboration has been working with the kitchen staff, in sharing inspiration for the beers and the menu.

Eric works for Baying Hound in addition to helping Bret. He was able to speak for a bit about how nano brewing works in the DC area.

Bret talked for a bit about the role of the brewpub in the community and encouraged us to come back soon as their future plans are wide open and really dependent on the support of their neighbors and regular patrons.

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The first beer of our 2nd triangulation was my Living Proof Brewery Sun-dial in the Shade Oatmeal Stout. When we made this beer, it was the first time either of us had use the triple bottom brew kettle that we now both own from MoreBeer.com. Originally, this beer was a bit under carbonated. I was pleased to see almost a year of cellaring has fixed that.

I explained a little bit of what inspires my beer names. I expanded on this some more in the second half.

Appropriately enough, we spent some time honoring the brewer patriots who founded our country. We like to think our work on Our Nation’s Attic would make them proud. On the day we recorded this, we had just finished the last beer made from that recipe as part of our Summer long project. We entertained the idea that Colonial or Independent might be more appropriate than Imperial.

The Sun-dial is based on a clone recipe of Wild Goose’s Oatmeal Stout, as published in North American Clonebrews. John gave more information about the history of Wild Goose, at which his friend Daniel who has gone on to Mountaineer and now Vandalia got his start. I chose this recipe from three stout recipes John researched. I wanted to make a clone of Doghfish Head Worldwide Stout since it is one of my three favorites from that brewery but it is a challenging beer even for the pros to make.

Continuing a thought we discussed last time, I mentioned I’ve decided I do in fact need to make a mead and soon. Partly I am inspired by the braggot we had recently, but also the bourbon barrel mead from B.Nektar.

The way this beer turned out, especially after cellaring, put us both in mind of the London porters we’ve had. I may intentionally move the beer closer to that style next time around. John dug a bit more into the history of stouts as a distinct style from porters. He also explained how pilsners arose originally as  novelty, a light and clear beer to the porter’s very dark color. The etymology of the phrase to known down a peg originates from beer culture around the same time these styles first emerged. Clear glassware for beer is another innovation owing to the immediate popularity of the pilsner on its introduction.

We closed out the discussion of the first beer by looking back at how much we’ve learned as brewers since we made it. We are both looking forward to applying a lot of new knowledge and skill to the next attempt

Chooch shared how to cheer in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia before we moved on to our second beer in this triangulation.

The second beer was the Dye-cast Dubbel, also from my kit and hence a Living Proof Brewing Company beer. It was took the North Coast Pranqster as a point of departure, a clone recipe from the same book as the stout.

I finally explained the provenance of both names.

“Hide not your talents. They for use were made. What’s a sundial in the shade.”

“All Wars are Follies, very expensive, and very mischievous ones. When will Mankind be convinced of this, and agree to settle their Differences by Arbitration? Were they to do it, even by the Cast of a Dye, it would be better than by Fighting and destroying each other.”

We turned to a discussion of how our Summer project has left our cellars bare. These tastings have us both eager to make our own recipes again so we have beers we can enjoy ourselves and share with friends, though having the Our Nation’s Attic shared with those it has is pretty amazing and humbling too.

Dye-cast was my first experimentation with a relatively new malt, Carared. I’ve since made another red beer but that came with other flavors desireable in that style but not imparted by this specific malt. In the dubbel, the Carared didn’t take away from the distinctive malty sweetness of a Belgian of this type.

I had much more detailed notes on this beer including more specific ideas of at least small tweaks I’d like to try. From there John and I considered some more involved process changes we might also try.

All the discussion of craft, how involved it can get and how much control you can bring into brewing brought us back to a point we made last time, a simple encouragement to anyone even considering brewing, that they should simply take the plunge and give it a try.

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Shortly after Evo’s first post about his brew diet, an email thread was started including John and myself and several of our other regular guests on the brewcast. Chris Miller in particular wanted to know if any of us were planning on trying to follow along on Evo’s latest beer focused adventure. Evo is the only one of us that works in an environment that in some ways is a throwback to earlier times, times that didn’t get so panicky over the mingling of employment and limited quantities of alcohol. If any of the rest of us were going to attempt our own brew diets, it would have to be with some modifications.

Inspired by Chris’ idea to replace his evening meal with beer while having sensible and healthful food for breakfast and lunch, I pondered how I could come up with something similar that would not get me fired.

I really wanted to participate. John and I have discussed some of the amazing historical brewing traditions that going back to medieval Europe and further. There is good evidence that a weakly alcoholic and highly nutritious beer fueled the construction of the pyramids. European surfs drank small beers throughout the colder seasons to ward against the chill and to enjoy a form of preserved grain. The Trappist monks and other monastic traditions have incorporated the craft of brewing into their aesthetics of austerity and self-sufficiency. My wife even tells me that there is an order of Russian orthodox monks who still observe Lent by consuming nothing but beer.

Spurred on by Evo’s wild idea and sustained by the deeper connections with beer and brewing traditions, I decided to do something very close to Chris’ approach. I will replace my evening meal with a single craft beer. I will eat breakfast as usual and since my most nutritious meal of the day is the often vegetarian meal, as much as possible with CSA grown vegetables, my wife cooks for the family for dinner almost every night of the week, I will hang onto my dinners to have as leftovers for lunch each day. Doing so is the least impactful, most healthy way for me to participate.

I picked up my first batch of beers for my coming October dinner replacements. My first thought was to favor sampler packs as a way to make my money stretch well for the whole month and to combat palate fatigue. I found this Sam Adams sampler of harvest beers and immediately realized it was perfect for an October brew diet. I could not resist throwing in the Flying Dog Secret Stash which is a harvest beer made from all local ingredients including spices and honey.

Buying all this beer brought it home that I am really doing this, I am giving up one meal a deal for a month and committing to replacing it with a single craft beer. Whether this slight reduction in my calorie count for the day helps me drop a few pounds I’ve been trying to lose in a half-assed fashion for a while now or has any other impact on me will be interesting to find out. I doubt I will have the time to blog anywhere near as much as Evo is doing on his brew diet and I already know a couple of work related events later in the month will required putting the diet on hold for a couple of days. Regardless, John and I will be recording at least one interview, possibly more, with Evo about this whole project. I look forward to sharing my experiences then about how my own personal take is going.

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In the intro, John shared his experience of drinking Dogfish Head 90 Minute on the Amtrak Acela. I had a similar experience earlier in the Summer. We chatted a bit more, comparing our notes between my past rail experiences and John’s upcoming trips. We then cracked open a pair of Flying Dog beers, me the Double Dog and John the Dogtoberfest. You’ll recognize the latter from last week, John and I swapped a couple of bottles of each as we often do to help diversify what we can taste on our own.

Before getting into the main segment, we talked about our first brewpub lunch in a while, at Growlers of Gaithersburg. Of the beers we tried this past week, we especially liked the seasonal fruit infusions and the Yorkshire Porter. Growler’s brewmaster, Bret, shared a lot of information with us including the story behind the infusions and many other beers with which they’ve been experimenting on their new secondary system. Having an additional rig closer to home brew scale is helping Growlers go beyond the stock beers it offers like its stout and kolsch. The conversation we are trying to schedule on mic with Bret for our upcoming one year anniversary should be as much fun for his background in food as his years of commercially brewing beer.

Chooch’s Cheers for Beers this week explained how beer drinkers toast in Austria and Germany.

Our main segment was a triangulation, re-tasting some of our home brews pre-dating our Summer long project on the Our Nation’s Attic. We drank a small bottle of The Living Proof Black Rum Stout followed by another of The Rogue Archivist. With further aging, the Black Rum Stout reminded us even more strongly of Oskar Blues Ten Fidy. As it warmed, it started to remind me of the Anchor Special Ale.

The Rogue Archivist is one of our more famous beers. It led directly to our open source fellowship to work on the Our Nation’s Attic. We tasted some of this beer from a growler at Balticon but having the better seal on the  bottle preserved far more of the delicate complexity of this amazing beer. Beer’s like this are humbling and encouraging and lead John to a great bit of advice, that everyone who has an interest should really just jump in and brew. You’ll never make astonishingly good beers if you don’t make any beers. Find your local shop, they will help you, or take a look at the kits availalbe at online suppliers, like MoreBeer.

We’ll post recipes for both of these beers soon as we already have for the Our Nation’s Attic.

In our final thoughts, John mentioned b.nektar meadery, especially their limited bourbon barrel mead. Along with the braggot Bret shared with us at our recent brewpub lunch, John’s thoughts are finally pulling me back to the idea of making mead again.

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In the intro,  I explained how the sudden chill in the air put me in the mood for Fall beers. I stopped by Gillys earlier and saw plenty of appropriate beers including Schlafly’s Oktoberfest, Sam Adams Octoberfest and Heavy Seas Marzen. I picked the Flying Dog Dogtoberfest to toast the first hints of the new season. John poured a New Belgium Ranger IPA. We talked about that brewery’s long awaited arrival in our area and some more details about their possible future plans.

I shared details of my recent travel to Budapest, Hungary including my impressions of the city and some things I learned about local restaurant options. Check my Flickr account for pictures from the trip, those on Plus already saw most of them. One of the highlights of the trip was the reception at the M restaurant. I of course tasted Soproni while I was there though I missed my chance to try to dark version. I also had Heineken Hungaria’s Gosser bock, Zlaty a tasty regional lager, an Edelweiss hefeweizen, and Dreher’s dark beer.

After a week of lagers and bocks, as tasty as they were, I was ready for a very hoppy American beer. The Baltimore airport now has a small concession from DuClaw, a local Maryland brewery. My first beer on arriving home was their Serum douple IPA. Despite my eventual yearning for a taste from home, I agree with John’s thoughts on foreign travel. While there, it is far better to immerse yourself, to go native, rather than opt into the hermetically sealed tourist and resort experience.

Appropriately enough, Chooch’s cheers this week was for Hungary.

We discussed my next trip, to Columbus, Ohio where I hoped to catch up with regular guest, Chris Miller. I am heading to Ohio for the Ohio Linux Fest. That event has much in common with the reason I went to Budapest, Transfabric.

We finished the episode discussing John’s latest enthusiasm, beer jogging. He explained at length what this involves including the historical antecedents, largely from militaries marching on their stomaches. I asked him for more information, for the benefits and risks of beer jogging as well as his views on the possible future of the sport.

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In the intro, John and I poured the same beer, Great Divide Hercules Double IPA. I gave home and Chooch each a single from a four pack I picked up the other week. We have had the IPA from Great Divide, Titan, as part of a sampler that also had the Hoss rye lager and the wild raspberry ale. Hercules compared favorably to Dogfish Head 120 and Oskar Blues Gubna.

Chooch’s segment this week told us how to toast in Armenia.

We received feedback from J. Wynia this week (who can be found on Google+ and Twitter) about his experiences making cider with easy to acquire ingredients. Ray sent us an article about rules here in Maryland around selling beer at breweries. One of my co-workers, James, shared an article with me about a CSA-style home brew sharing club in San Francisco. This reminded me of a recent Shareable article on a co-op brewpub and microbrewery in Austin.

Our main segment was a horizontal tasting of Chimay’s Red, White and Blue ales that we conducted with frequent guest and contributor, Chooch, on our most recent brew day, making the last plus size batch of Our Nation’s Attic. ONA is part of our work on the Liberated Libation Front.

We were sure to raise glasses to Chooch’s lovely wife, Viv, who could not join the social hubbub that we enjoy on a normal brew day (as opposed to the evening brewing we have had to do on other ONA batches.)

As for the three ales, the white reminded me in particular of the Gouden Carolus. The brett funk put us in mind of the Allagash Confluence which we enjoyed later in the day. We chatted about Phil Rossi’s interest in both our brewing projects and their results. Phil is Chooch’s band mate in Ditched by Kate. Not surprisingly since we were tasting Abbeys, we compared the Blue to North Coast Brother Thelonius.

In thinking about Chooch’s ideas for his first home brew we suggest maybe hybridizing a couple of styles he likes. Belgian style IPAs are quite popular recently, like Stone Cali-Belgique.

For our final thoughts, we talked about spent grain bread which reminded me of Wil Wheaton’s recent experiences home brewing for the first time. He and his step-son Ryan not only made bread but also dog biscuits. That made John think of Mark Frauenfelder’s efforts growing and roasting his own coffee beans. Frequent guest, Chris Miller, has also experimented with roasting his own beans.

Chooch managed to include a plug for a local convention in a few weeks, Intervention, that definitely looks like it is worth checking out, not in the least because Ditched by Kate will be playing there.

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To start things off, I opened a North Coast Old Rasputin finishing the four pack from the 4th of July where we tasted it against the Ayinger Celebrator. John poured a DuClaw Misery which he expected to be on the hoppier side for a wheat wine just like DuClaw’s take on a barley wine. Living up to this expectation, John theorized that making Misery involved a hopback, or a final hop addition made as the beer is piped from the brew kettle to the fermentation tank.

We spent a good amount of time talking about my upcoming travel, some of it international a new experience for me. I’ve been invited to an international DIY gathering, Transfabric, in Budapest, Hungary. The local hackerspace is Hungarian Autonomous Center for Knowledge or H.A.C.K. Soon after I return from Budapest, I’ll be heading to the Ohio Linux Fest. While there, I will be meeting up with Chris Miller to visit the Columbus Brewing Company. I will share more about my Brussels trip closer to November.

John just finished some travel, to Delaware. He visited the Dogfish Head brewpub in Rehoboth. While there he tried the Johny Cask, a cask condition version of the lovely Alehouse 75, and a stinky pils, the Johnny Rawton. He had a chance to try an anniversary beer from Heavy Seas that is now hard to come by, the Thank You, Thankyouverymuch, a double IPA.

We included the first of a series of segments Chooch record for us explaining cheers for beers from around the world. This time he explained how beer lovers toast in Argentina.

We had a healthy dose of feedback to share. Hank asked us if we had tried any Minensota beers. He recommended two year round beers in cans from Surly, Cynic and Furious; Summit Extra Pale Ale, Maibock and Great Northern Porter; and Grain Belt Nordeast. The talk of the last as a taste of Minneapolis made John think of Heavy Seas Loose Cannon and Dogfish Head Alehouse 75 as tastes the well represent the mid-atlantic.

David wrote in response to Evo recommending Pliny the Elder to recommend the much rarer Pliny the Younger. He recommended another local favorite, Drake’s Denogginizer.

Nathan Lowell was prompted to comment on the episode with Evo by the discussion of John recommending Oskar Blues Ten Fidy. While Nate enjoyed that beer despite it being big and challenging, he has found his go to beer from Oskar Blues is Old Chub. He has found quite a few local breweries in Colorado worth exploring including Crabtree, Avery, Left Hand, and Great Divide along with the better known New Belgium and Odell. Some of his favorites from those are the Crabtree Boxcar Brown, the Great Divide Claymore Scotch Ale, and the New Belgium Abbey. His next beer on his beer quest will be either the Tommy Knocker Butthead or the Saranac Pomegranate Wheat.

We were mentioned by listener Fred Kiesche, of the Lensman’s Children, on SFSignal episode 70. John and I discussed his progress on assembling a promo for anyone else who wants to help spread the word.

Nate not only wrote a great comment but recorded some thoughts on his beer quest so far. He explained how our cider tasting with him at Balticon encouraged him to try some craft brews to see if they caused the same adverse reaction as the macros, the only beers he had tried before meeting us. He took good advantage of the build your own six pack option many stores offer once he realized he could enjoy microbrews without ill effect.

He recapped much of what he mentioned in his comment on the episode with Evo, from his success with Ten Fidy through the local breweries and favorites. He discussed more about his palate, from more accessible beers like Crabtree Ginger Bee to New Belgium Mighty Arrow that along with Oskar Blues have him thinking for now the maltier beers are more to his taste as opposed to the hoppy ones. He has enjoyed quite a few seemingly simple beers like Harp Lager but also ones with a bit more to them like Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat. Trying the Left Hand Stranger Pale Ale made him realize that he may have more of a taste for hops than he initially thought, maybe for particular kinds of hops.

He did try that Tommy Knocker bock lager after all. He tried their Tundra Beary too. He gave another hearty recommendation for Untappd though he uses it more for its journal capabilities than the social features.

In our final thoughts, I mentioned a Washington Post article about brewers’ experimentations with single hop beers. One example is how Sam Adams released a deconstruction in a sampler pack of their Laititude 48. We’ve talked about Growler’s single hop series before. Basic Brewing Radio has had some good episodes on the history of hops, along with other brewing ingredients and techniques.

John is reading The Art of Whisky Distilling out of his recent interesting in micro and craft distilling. Our open source fellowship project, The Libation Liberation Front, is intentionally broad to encompass distilling as well as brewing.

We have several great episodes planned for the near future. In addition to re-visiting some of our home brews on mic from the past year in preparation for getting back to brewing our own recipes as we wrap up work on Our Nation’s Attic we are going to interview a store owner, have a horizontal Chimay tasting with Chooch, taste some Belgians with John Cmar perhaps in preparation for my trip to Brussels, and welcome Nathan Lowell back for a one for all tasting.

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We used Google+ and a Hangout to record tasting a couple of hoppy beers with Evo Terra. You’ll hear us refer to muting Dave Slusher, that is why.

The first beer we shared with Evo was the Sierra Nevada Torpedo Extra IPA. All three of us have had Sierra Nevada’s Best of Summer Beer Camp and especially enjoyed the Juniper Black Ale which reminded John of Anchor’s Christmas Ale. John and I recommended that Evo seek out the Harvest Ales.

John asked Evo what some of his favorite beers are. Evo gave an impressive list including Oskar Blues Gubna and G’Knight, Russian River Pliny the Elder, and Bells Two Hearted and Hopslam. Evo is a fan of Dogfish Head and mentioned enjoying the Squall when it is available. John was curious what Evo thought of the 120 Minute. Evo shared a story from the early days of podcasting involving this beer which illustrates how a big beer can often also be surprisingly accessible.

Evo wanted to know what we could get here on the East Coast that may not be distributed out towards the West Coast. John and I ran through some of our favorites including anything by Southern Tier but especially their IPAs, DuClaw Devil’s Milk (which we had planned to share with Evo at Balticon had I not made a series of misfortunate decisions starting with a bottle of Auchentoshan Evo had with him), and Heavy Seas Loose Cannon and the newer variations of the recipe like the Black Cannon and Dubbel Cannon.

John wanted to know if Evo had tried any Smutty Nose beers, in particular the Wheat Wine. He thought this beer is another good example of the big but unepxectedly accessible brews like the 120 Minute. Despite my advice, John recommended Oskar Blues Ten Fidy for this reason to Nathan Lowell very early on in his newly started exploration of beer. Nathan is very fortunate to have access to some excellent local and regional beers as he continues his beer quest, in particular Odells.

Evo can get a limited selection from Odells including their IPA and 90 Shilling. I clarified that 90 Shilling and Wee Heavy refer to styles not just particular beers. Examples of the latter include Alesmith Wee Heavy, Sam Adams Wee Heavy and Iron Hill Wee Heavy (which is the Pennsylvania brewery I couldn’t remember at the time.) This made John curious about the state of beer distribution in Arizona.

We opened our second beer, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard. This is the beer that nearly killed Tee Morris.

From there, we asked Evo about some of his recent beer question, in particular to Stone World Bistro. When Evo last visited he picked up a few great beers from the growler filling station including Sublimely Self Righeous and Ruination. Stone also servers guest beers and Evo recommended Hair of the Dog Fred for the Belgian lovers and one of his very favorites, Pliny the Elder. Evo also recently traveled to his original home state, Oklahoma, and to Texas. He tried to sample as many local brews as he could though he admitted that was often a challenge. He recommended Coop Ale Works in particular their F5 IPA. Evo had his 200th beer check in on Untappd during these travels, unfortauntely just a Shiner Bock.

Mentioning Texas reminded John of his days in Austin. In particular, John enjoyed the very cheap but excellent offerings at Maggie Maes, which included Chimay at a time soon after he first discovered that beer.

Evo explained a bit more about the local beer scene in Arizona. One of his acquaintances, Justin Coleman, has an impressive number of check-ins on Untappd, 650, as a consequence of attending so many tastings, for example at venues like Flanny’s. We all thought this would be an excellent way to earn new badges. This especially would be useful for beer styles each of us style find a bit challenging like sour beers.

Speaking of specifica tastes and styles, we waxed rhapsodic for a moment. I thanked Evo for encouraging my exploration of hoppy beers several years ago. He reciprocated, crediting the Belgian inspired beers we shared with him at Balticon for getting him to try more beers in that family than he’d otherwise be inclined to try. I used that as an excuse to once again praise Franklins. John and I need to take Evo there on his next trip to the DC area.

Discussing these two beer styles reminded Evo of the Urthel Hop-it. Belgian IPAs are currently in vogue but the Hop-it well pre-dates this trend. Evo found it to combine the best of both offerings, leading with a very typical Belgian funk but following up with an intense hop impact.

This led us to talk about other recent trends in beers, in particular the use of oak for aging and conditioning. We wondered what might be next, such as wood from barrels used for other things like liqueurs or even maybe jams. John thinks maybe we might see wood for its own sake where such has some resiny character that makes it attractive for other purposes like incense. Evo wondered about using nag chompa and sandalwood. John offered the Taj Mahal Lager as a possible example.

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In the intro, I enjoyed one of the unspoiled bottles of the Pirate-in-Chief and John finally had an Oskar Blues Gubna. We then gave a run down of the beers we enjoyed over the recent Holiday weekend including Peak Organic King Crimson, Dogfish Head Midas Touch which we tasted horizontally with Chris Miller’s Ye Olde 2700, and 21st Amendment Hop Crisis. I made good on the idea I had last episode, to pair Ayinger Celebrator with North Coast Old Rasputin. We tasted Heavy Seas Plank 1, the first in a series of experiments in wood aged ales on which John Cmar had recently remarked.

After the Holiday, while doing some work on our most recent beer, we sampled some of the left overs from the party. We tried Dogfish Head Hellhound on my Ale and Epic Smoked and Oaked.

We tackled two topics in the main segment, how we work to make our home brew identifiable in the bottled and what inspires us to brew in the first place. Idenfitication can be a challenge when re-using bottles which we do as it is far more affordable and environmentally conscious than buying new glass for every batch. John and I have both taken to not use Sam Adams bottles as an example because of the embossed brewery name on each one. Distinctive bottle shapes are problematic for the same reason such as Anchor and North Coast.

John pointed out that our beers also help us act as ambassadors of home brewing in general. First and lasting impressions are important. I agreed, suggesting that there is a fun mental sleight of hand offering a very professionally packaged home brew that prompts a question about the brewery that creates an opening to talk about home brewing. This can extend to sharing beers made by fellow home brewers.

Many beers both inspire us to brew but use bottles that cannot easily be re-used. Stone and Rogue paint directly on the labels. Some simply require a bit more work like Southern Tier where you need to use a straight edge as well as soaking to get their bottles clean. John recommended using a metallic scrubbing bad to remove stubborn adhesives. The Gemini that I mentioned in the cast is a blend of the Unearthly and the Hoppe.

I noticed that small bottles tend to be easier to clean up.  The larger bottles perhaps are used more by breweries with special packaging to highlight special beers.  This can extend to how the bottles are closed that 750s in particular, John has found, often use corks rather than crown caps. However, the small bottles aren’t always full 12 ounces. This is increasingly common with imports like Palm and Celebrator. With the small bottles, I pointed out something we take for granted that you have to watch out for screw tops that don’t work with your typical capper. Unibroue are surprisingly screw tops in the small and John recalled that the Appalachian beers we had recently were screw tops.

John explained a trick he learned for helping growlers last longer. He has used a growler to supplement bottling from time to time. I talked about the ratio of larger to small bottles I prefer and how that factors into how I distribute beers. John liked that idea, noting that giving away a large bottle encourages sharing even further. We have both had good success in encouraging our friends to return bottles for refilling.

Turning to inspiration, I shared my thoughts on focusing on ingredients and technique more so than a particular recipe or recognizable beer. John pointed to both Sam Adams and Oskar Blues as examples of how they handled ingredients prompting him to craft particular recipes to play with an existing flavor. I brought the discussion back around to where someone just starting out on their beer quest might be. Being able to compare the same style of recipe made by different breweries can really enhance your understanding of the recipe and its components.You can also compare different beers made by the same brewer to understand the distinctiveness of their style across recipes. Really it is about ways to understand why you like what you like as you are tasting.

John shared one last story about how unusual ingredients can inspire like the coffee porter made by Scott Roche and John’s experiments with cold brewing coffee.

We finished with a brewing update. John shared a couple of videos with me that prompted him to research a technique we tried during a recent brew day to address one of the issues with the problem batch of the Nation’s Attic. I noted that I think using a vorloff may help when I re-visit the Pirate-in-Chief.

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In the intro, John noted the 6th anniversary of my other podcast. I poured an Oskar Blues Old Chub and John a Stone IPA. Just as I was craving a Scotch Ale, he was craving a Gubna but was happy to enjoy a beer that presents an enjoyably different take on hops from something like Sam Adams 48 Latitude. We chatted a bit about food pairing for both beers. John in particular pointed out how well his IPA paired with Green and Black’s Chocolate.

After discussing the beers we were drinking, we talked about our latest return to Franklins. We were joined there by Chip from The Scotchcast who was in town on vacation with his family. Sadly we waited too long to visit the general store next door, it was closed by the time we finished our beer and meal so we were unable to pick anything interesting up or send Chip home with some local favorites.

We discussed two topics in the main segment. The first was old standbys and comfort beers. John mentioned that he always enjoys Unibroue La Fin du Monde at a particular pizzeria. Following on that idea of beers at particular places, I talked about having a Broken Shovel Stout for the first time in a while when my family took me to Growlers for Fathers Day. The other beer I had that I couldn’t remember while we were recording was their new Freight Train IPA. Anchor Liberty Ale is not surprisingly a beer to which John returns again and again. He likened it to a few other beers that are usually not hard to find when more interesting brews are not on offer like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Sam Adams Boston Lager, and Rogue Dead Guy Ale.

I generalized that sometimes it is the brewery as much as a specific beer. For me, one example is Unibroue which prompted John to identify Samuel Smith’s as such a brewery. John also mentioned Anchor as much for the brewery as for any given beer of theirs and Chimay based on his first tasting of the Red.

Sometimes old favorites, like Ayinger Celebrator for John, can be paired with new brews. I shared that I may try to find some Celebrator for that purpose when I introduce John to North Coast Old Rasputin over the Holiday weekend.

John waxed quite poetic about how some touchstone beers are like pire embodiments of various ideal qualities of beer. For him, much of what Oskar Blues makes typify this notion. Many other beers we drink may remind us of these paragons of various tastes and aspects.

For our second topic, we discussed teachable moments arising from instructive failure. John deserves a lot of credit for being willing to discuss his most recent beer that didn’t quite turn out, part of the larger batch of Our Nation’s Attic we have been working on. Half of the 15 gallons we have in bottle hit the mark, matching the inspiration, but the other half we just bottled are just a bit too astringent and have an unusual fruit note. We explained how when faced with an experience like this, you have to move past your disapointment to try to identify constructively the source of the problem. Some examples from this and my recent failure in the Pirate-in-Chief may have been how less robust low gravity beers are to outside organisms, how different yeasts react to stress, and how grains may behave in the mash.

I suggested that making the same recipe can provide a valuable basis for comparison to aid in troubleshooting. We both tink that fixing process problems is the best motivation for better understanding the craft. Some things may be beyond control, such as problem ingredients that are undetectable until the beer is finished.

We discussed how recipes can fail providing a different learning experience. We noted that brew questing and tasting can help with recipe development. You find validation and comparison to the flavors in a recipe under development out in the wider world of beer on offer. The experience of tasting may provide insights as to how to tweak a recipe when revisited.

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Lost Rhino was recently founded by Matt Hagerman and Favio Garcia. They were Old Dominion shift brewers who left after it was sold to Fordham Brewing of Annapolis, MD and the brewing operations were moved to Delaware in May of 2009.

While the Old Dominion Brewery was being dismantled, Hagerman and Garcia we went through the now defunct brewery and pub purchasing everything they could find including: mill, brew kettle, fermenters, furniture and even windows.

They found a suitable place to set up their new brewery just a mile from the original Old Dominion site. They began brewing in early 2011 and hosted the grand opening on May 11, 2011.

Their focus is on using quality, local ingredients and fostering an open sense of community as much as building a business. They currently use noble Halertau and Saaz hops grown in Leesburg, Virginia, though they do import some from out of state as the local supply builds.

They have contracted with another Virgina farmer to grow their barley, but it will be some time until the have will an adequate supply line.

At the opening they were still under heavy construction and all that was available was glass and growler fills of their four current products (Rhino Chasers Pilsner, New River Pale Ale, Face Plant IPA, and a root beer) and tours of the brewery.

By the end of June they will have a tasting room completed offering their beverages and sandwiches and they will open a full Brew Pub as soon as construction is completed.

Also in the works is an Octoberfest event as well as a full canning line. Canning has been somewhat of a trend for small craft brewers, but there are several reasons for this. First is that canning technology has come a long way in the past few decades, and there are no longer any kind of taste imparted from the cans. Second, cans are lighter and easier to distribute. Finally cans are much more environmentally friendly than glass. Aluminum has a lighter impact on the environment to create and over 80% of aluminum is recycled and put back into immediate use (within 90 days). Glass has a much smaller conversion rate and does not see reuse for several months or years.

Lost Rhino is hoping to be in DC stores the third week in June, 2011 and throughout Virginia by the first of July.
But how is the beer?

I need to preface my opinions with the fact that I’m not a hop head. I do like a good IPA, but I’m very picky about how the bittering is balanced (depending on beer style, of course).

The three beers so far in the Lost Rhino line have a very similar taste profile to each other. They are all quite bitter using the same hops and for my taste far too much. The Rhino Chasers Pilsner and New River Pale Ale were very similar. The Pilsner was so over powered by hops that I couldn’t taste anything else going on.

The Pale Ale was better and allowed some of the grains to come through. Still over powered by hops. Again, the same bittering comes through in the IPA – but I expect it to be there. Again, not terribly complex, but a strong offering.

The root beer on the other hand was absolutely fabulous! We were tempted to request a growler fill of it!

Being their first batches I will definitely be coming back to see how things progress. My hope is that over time they will refine the recipes and develop them into top tier beverages. Matt said they have plans to spread out into several different styles (oak aged stouts, yum!) that I am eager to try.
For the brewery geeks out there, here are some stats:

• 4 vessels 25 barrel brew house
• With the equipment on site they will be able to produce 80,000 kegs a year when at full capacity. They do not anticipate reaching near that any time soon as they slowly and carefully grow the business.
• Their storage cooler was purchased from a Walmart in Kansas. It will keep 400 kegs nice and chilled, waiting for distribution.
• The fermenters are 1980s vintage, but still look and work like new
• The heat exchanger takes the wort from 180 to 60 degrees in 1.5 seconds!
• They are currently running four fermenters, each holding 100 kegs of brew
• The fermenters are cooled with glycol

The video of the vigorous yeast bucket is available in streaming, ogg and mpeg formats on the Internet Archive page

Here is a photo gallery of the trip:

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In the intro, John enjoyed Appalachian Brewing Company’s The Jolly Scot and I had The Brewer’s Art Resurrection. We discussed the latest archeological findings pointing to stone age brewing in France. Earlier developments in this vein were the Celtic trough beer and a continuing tradition of brewing in wooden vessels transferring heat via stones on bonfires.

Chooch was a bit late joining us but we were having a Jack Bauer moment following his progress via Glympse. While tracking his progress home, we discussed our recent visit to Brasserie Beck. I was reminded very favorably of Le Mannequin Pis here in Maryland. We enjoyed Brasserie LeFebvre’s Hopus and Uinta’s Tilted Smile from their Crooked Line. We have to thank Carl Malamud, the Rogue Archivist and the man responsible for the open source beer fellowship, for treating us to these beers and to dinner.

We received some listener feedback from Johnathan who gave us the heads up, via Ballast Point, that June is craft beer month in San Diego. He also recommended the app, Tap Hunter, to aid those on the beer quest. Neither of us had heard of it but have both been using Untappd a lot recently where all our listeners are welcome to friend us.

Chooch finally joined us on mic at which point I relate our following his progress on line to The Panopticon. Setting aside issues of globabl surveillance, we crack open the G’Knight, the beer we selected for our 1-4-all tasting. We chat for a bit about the lamentable story behind this beer’s renaming from The Gordon. Chooch compared G’Knight favorably to one of the only other Oskar Blues’ beers he’s tried, Gubna.

Chooch mentioned another beer quest app, BeerWhere. I mentioned some of the beers Untappd lists as similar to G’Knight, Peak Organic King Crimson, Long Trail Centennial, and Rogue XS Imperial Red.

We finished the 1-4-all segmented discussing some micro-distilled spirites we’ve enjoyed. In addition to the Seven Beauties John enjoyed at The Brewer’s Art, he also got a chance to try Rogue’s Chatoe Rogue Oregon Single Malt Whiskey. While I was in New York, I got to try Heartland Brewery’s experiment in using a beer recipe as a base for a whiskey, their Farmer Jon’s Whisky which starts with their oatmeal stout of the same name.

In our final thoughts, Chooch shared a report from the grand opening of Lost Rhino. He related the long story behind its founding, in the wake of one of the big breweries acquiring Fordham and Old Dominion. The founders were shift brewers at Old Dominion who John and I met while he was working at Growlers. Lost Rhino has plans to supplement the capacity at Growlers as well as at Vintage 50. Based on Chooch’s impressions we may have to give Matt and his partner some time to find their feet, similar to our thoughts on Baying Hound Aleworks, whose brews John and I feel it is time to re-visit.

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In the intro, John and I discussed why we’ve been a bit busy these last couple of weeks. In addition to attending Balticon, John went to the Steampunk World’s Fair the weekend before and I’ll be headed to OpenGov Camp and PDF in New York in the next couple of days. To take our minds off this hectic fortnight, we poured out a couple of beers. I had the Great Lakes Brewing Company’s Commodore Perry IPA. We tried most of the rest of the Great Lakes brews except this one previously. John enjoyed a Victory St. Victorious. It was a new brew from a brewery whose beers we’ve had before and hold in good esteem. We close out the intro dsicussing our experiences of Balticon a little bit, including the home brew panel on which we participated. The additional panelist I mentioned was Michael deLuca of Small Beer Press.

We received some listener feedback from Natalie, a regular contributor to The Secret Lair among other things. She had a couple of questions about whether we’ve published our recipes and if we are extract or all grain brewers. She asked after a particular Dogfish Head, the Black and Blue (which we compare to the Red and White) and the Koko Brown from Kona. John has had other Konas, the Pipeline Porter and the Fire Rock Pale Ale. We’ll keep an eye out for the Koko as we haven’t seen it yet.

Our main segment was a One for All we recorded at Balticon with Nathan Lowell. John and I are huge fans of the Trader’s Tales, from the Golden Age of the Solar Clipper. The first three books of the series are available from Amazon in print and Kindle editions. This series as well as Nathan’s other books are also available for free at Podiobooks where he has lent his voice not only to his own works but to a few other others as well.

We had two Crispin ciders to choose from. We may return to The Saint with Nathan but selected the Lansdowne to try. As the conversation wound on, we got some fantastic insights into Nathan’s past that very much informs his writing and his process. We chatted a bit about Ravenwood and his experiences of NaNoWriMo, especially as they relate to the speed at which he produces his initial drafts.

In our final thoughts, we mentioned Podiobooks again. We also give a brewing update on the beer we helped Chris Miller brew and our latest effort, Our Nation’s Attic, an American Pale Ale. We are making this beer as part of an open source beer fellowship. It was inspired by a beer we’ve discussed previously.

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We had such a great time that we’ve decided to host another BYOBS at this year’s Balticon. After conferring over our respective schedules and the general grid of programming, we’ve settled on Sunday night at 7:30PM to 8:30PM. As with last year, we are keeping the location confidential since we will be sharing alcohol. Please find John or me at the convention and ask for the full details. An excellent opportunity to do so would be just before or right after the Brewing Your Own Beer at Home panel, on Saturday at 1PM in Derby. John and I will both be on that panel.

Our plan to brew and tweak the Black Rum Stout we shared last year just didn’t come together in time as a result of insane work and personal commitments. We will however be bringing samples of three other recent homebrews to taste including the Living Proof Dye-cast Dubbel, the Wryneck Brewing Company Green Grass and High Tides, and the Rogue Archivist.

If you won’t have homebrew to share, we recommend checking out Calvert Wine and Spirits which is conveniently located just a few blocks away from the convention hotel. Their beer selection is phenomenal, we’ll be making a trip to pick up supplemental beer for the podcast segments we hope to record throughout the weekend.

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Both are often motivated by the creation of products that suit the taste of the creator and the absence of such products out in the world. Collaboration is usually seen as a positive rather than a competitive threat. Meritocracy rules the day, the quality of work and clear exhibition of mastery often trump market considerations such as price or messaging. If you search for either open source software or homebrew recipes, you will find items of all varieties that match.

Given this strong overlap, it isn’t surprising that John and I both work with open source to varying degrees and maintain an interest in both constructed intellectual commons and the public domain. Through our volunteering efforts, we’ve even come into the orbit of one of the strongest advocates for the public domain, Carl Malamud. We’ve crafted a beer out of the respect we hold for Carl’s efforts in improving access to the text of our laws and multimedia materials produced by the government.

Carl has a new project in the works to which we hope to be able to link soon. Based on our past interactions, John, his wife who makes all our beer labels, and I have been tapped by Carl’s non-profit, public.resource.org, as Open Source Fellows. Our project?

“Our Nation’s Attic.” An exploration and demonstration of the importance of works of the government in promoting creativity and economic activity through the creation and documentation of an American Pale Ale, an open source beer.

Given what I’ve said about copyright not applying to recipes and the parallels from the world of software, open souce beer may seem redundant. There are other protections for recipes, however, mostly in the form of secrecy, trade or otherwise. As supportive as the commercial craft brewers are of hobbyists, few if any openly publish their recipes. The large volume of clone recipes available are the product of reverse engineering and exist legally due to the lack of copyright. Tolerance and support are not the same as affirmative siganls and sharing of information that once disclosed is in the public domain.

Our Nation’s Attic will be an open source beer recipe in a positive sense. John and I will publish the initial recipe with the clear intention of other home brewers using it to make their own beer from it. To that end we are committed to publishing our notes throughout the development and brewing of this beer with an eye towards common adaptations both in process (all grain, partial grain, and extract) and ingredients which frequently vary based on local availability. The notes, which will be subject to copyright, we will dedicate to the public domain.

Going beyond our own efforts producing batches to evaluate and tune the recipe, we’ve discussed possibly developing a declarative signal, something like a logo mark, to identify home brews produced from recipes that are openly shared. We’d like to seek out other brewers, hobbyist and if we can find willing ones commercial ones, willing to use our recipe and post their own tweaks for further sharing. Lacking a copyright, we cannot compel a share-alike or copyleft condition. It is our hope that the spirit of collaboration among brewers is strong enough that we’ll get at least a few takers and perhaps get many more to think about how opening the source of their own beers would enable far more experimentation and enjoyment.

Stay tuned for updates both on Our Nation’s Attic and our further efforts in cultivating concrete practices of open sharing in brewing. For my part, based on my deeper interest in policy and its history, I will try to pull together some more posts expanding on the themes identified in the definition of our fellowship project.

To the extent possible under law, Thomas Gideon has waived all copyright and related or neighboring rights to Open Source Beer Fellowship. This work is published from: United States.

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Before we poured and discussed our introductory beers, we chatted a bit about Balticon, the annual convention of the Baltimore Science Fiction Society. John and I will be recording the homebrew panel to share on a future episode and hope to corner many of the podcasters who are also homebrewers and beer geeks to that same end.

John enjoyed a Dogfish Head Midas Touch while I had a Sierra Nevada Best of Beer Camp California Common. We started chatting about food pairings and following on from John’s suggestion of Thai with the Midas Touch, we discussed Nooshi, a pan Asian place near where we both work. We then talked through a quick tour of the food joints in the Golden Triangle area in downtown DC including Mai Thai, Well Dressed Burrito, Greek Deli, Science Club, Pret a Manger, and the grill whose name I forgot which is Smith and Wollensky.

John also mentioned the 21st Amendment Monk’s Blood, a fine ale that is a collaboration with the Homebrew Chef. The beer was released for Strong Beer Month back in February.

For our main segment, we were joined by John’s cousin, one of the Rage City Roller Girls, Kathy Wooldridge AKA Kat Scratch Beaver. We chatted a bit about her experiences beer questing in Germany and her more recent finds in Alaska. While we talked, we sample and shared thoughts on a dry hopped version of Growler’s wonderful SMASH beer, the Seneca Pale Ale.

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As is our custom, John and I recorded during our last brew day. We had a guest brewer in the kitchen, Chris Miller. He drove out from Cleveland to work with us on a clone brew of Dogfish Head’s Midas Touch. We were also joined for the brewing by past guest, Chooch. We had to make a couple of substitutions in the recipe, on top of our conversion from liquid extract to dry and partial grain. The guys at Flying Barrel were tremendously helpful.

While the wort chilled we squeezed into John’s reverse Tardis of a studio to sample and share our thoughts on some Ohio brews Chris brought with him. From his hometown of Cleveland, Crhis had a trio of Great Lake Brewing Company’s finest, Eliot Ness Amber Lager, Burning River Pale Ale, and Edmund Fitzgerald Porter. Chris was kind enough to enlighten us on the local history to which Burning River refers. From Akron’s Thirsty Dog Brewing Company he brought the Old Leg Humper. All of these were excellent beers, to a one.

We also chatted a bit about food. In the vein of one of our very favorite places here in DC, Founding Farmers, Chris told us about The Greenhouse Tavern. The pomme frite cooked in duck fat with veal gravy sounds worth the trip. Chris mentions the West Side Market, where he picked up the honey we used in the beer. That is worth a visit no doubt too.

We’ll see Chris, and Chooch for that matter, again at Balticon. We’re plannnig another BYOBS (bring your own beer and story) as we did last year though undoubtedly we’ll record it and use what we can. We also plan on lining up as many tastings with attendees as we can to record and share. In particular we are looking forward to sitting down with Evo Terra who is notorious for his love of hops (warning the tweet to which that link points is absolutely NSFW.)

The chat turns to a couple of beer specific events. There is the Great American Beer Fest and, as much as it pains us to mention it due to our failure to get tickets, Savor.

In our final thoughts, we turn towards some of our other, related passions. Chris has a background in coffee and roasts his own these days. He often gets green beans from Phoenix Coffee. John points out that More Coffee looks interesting, it is a sibling site of More Beer of which we are huge fans. Chri’s local brew store, Grape and Granary, caters to coffee enthusiasts reinforcing the common interest.

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In the intro, I was drinking the Sam Adams Wee Heavy while John enjoyed the 21st Amendment Bitter American.

We recently got a chance to hit a couple of beer joints on our beer quest and share our thoughts on Founding Farmers and the Capital Alehouse in Fredericksburg, VA. At Founding Farmers we enjoyed the food and the spirits as much as the beer. We got a personal tour of the single malts, bourbons and ryes. The Yamazaki, the Bruichladdich and the house rye really stood out though all the spirits recommended to us by the bartender, Josh, were delicious. In additiona to a Manhattan made with the house rye, John enjoyed a North Coast Brother Thelonius. After my Bruichladdich I sample a subtle but deft Schlafly’s APA.

We had a few more beers the following day at the alehouse, along with past guest Chooch. We all started with the Jefferson’s Reserved Bourbon Barrel Stout. The waiter and I disagreed on the merits of Flying Dog’s Wild Dog Coffee Stout. Chooch then had a Terrapin Side Project 14 Tomfoolery, John a Lagunitas Gnarly Wine, and after picking two beers that were out, I settled on a Stone Double Bastard.

We finish the episode with an special brewing update. We each taste and share impressions of the other’s latest beers.

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In the intro, I was drinking the Troeg Java Head Stout and John the Great Divide Belgica. John shared the Java Head with me and picked it up after trying it at a Ditched by Kate show. The Belgica was a beer I gave John from a variety pack I picked up on the same trip where he snagged the Troeg. We both also tried the Great Divide Titan IPA from the pack and it is solid but perhaps in the shadow of other Imperial IPAs we’ve head recently like the Southern Tier Unearthly and the Dogfish Head Squall. It is an excellent Summer beer, though, and beyond the food pairings on the page, I think it would nicely balance some grilled sausage like Aidells or Niman Ranch.

The Java Head is a nicely crafted, smaller stout that serves as an excellent alternative to some of the bigger stouts we’ve enjoyed like the Oskar Blue’s Ten Fidy and the Dogfish Head Worldwide Stout. I am a little afraid of Oskar Blue’s next step up from the Ten Fidy, their Tweny Ten.

We got a bit of listener feedback from Chip of The Scotch Cast. He wrote in response to our discussion of gluten free beers from our episode with Chris Miller. Chip suggests folks who cannot have gluten try Green’s, that he would not have known they were gluten free if no one told him.

We also have some bad news about the show Brew Masters. If the network was comparing it to No Reservations, there is a strong irony there as it took Tony Bourdain’s show a few seasons to find its voice.

In our main segment, we did a 2-4-2 with a couple of barley wines. The first was Southern Tier’s Backburner. It was hoppy but not as hoppy as some other off beat barley wines, like the Duclaw Devil’s Milk. The other beer we tasted was the Great Divide Old Ruffian. Stone Old Guardian also falls on the more hoppy end of the spectrum. We also get into talking about really big beers, beyond barley wine, like Sam Adams Utopias.

We close with pointers to the barrels available at More Beer and  a quick brewing update since at the time of this episode’s release, the 80 shilling we brewed before recording the 2-4-2 tasting has since been racked and dubbed The Pirate-in-Chief.

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In the intro we chat a bit about my new job at which I start Monday, working for New America as a Senior Staff Technologist.

Before we get into our main topic, we have a miniature 1-4-all to enjoy a beer donated to us by Justin. The Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Ale is a splendid example of the form, worth seeking out for anyone who has a taste for bourbon. John introduced me to Maker’s Mark 46 and we have been known to enjoy a pour together from time to time. The ale in question is what we have now dubbed a sneaky eight, that is a eight percent by volume beer that doesn’t drink like anything near that alcoholic. The Old Man falls into this character (which allows us to hint at a future tasting of the Back Burner which is a bit bigger still.) Justin collaborated on the wonderful label for the Rogue Archivist.

Our main feature as promised is a longer brewing update to catch up and look ahead a bit. Balticon is a good upcoming touch stone. John and I collaborated on our very first beer together for a gathering at that convention last year. We’ll definitely try to re-visit the Black Rum Stout recipe before this year’s convention. Shortly after last Spring, I started re-building my kit so we could have two full pipelines going. John asked after my latest purchase, a fourth 3 gallon carboy from More Beer, which now allows me to pretty much brew batches back to back.

Many of the recipes and inspirations for John’s beers come from one of his favorite books, Extreme Brewing. We may re-visit the blood orange hefeweizen and are definitely going to help past guest Chris Miller attempt the Midas Touch recipe from that book. The other book from which John draws a lot of ideas is Radical Brewing. The inspiration for the beer I just bottled this weekend is the North Coast PranQster.

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In the intro, Thomas poured a Dogfish Head Palo Santo Marron and John a New Belgium Fat Tire. John mentions that the other New Belgium beer a friend gave him was the Hoptober. We commiserate on not being able to get tickets to Savor but look forward to the City Paper’s 15th Annual Brew Fest and the Washington Post 2011 Beer Madness.

Our main discussion was another tour of the Virginia, Maryland and Washington, DC area, this time to discuss beer joints of interest. That is places that do not necessarily brew on premises but have much to offer the enthusiastic beer quester. We lead off with Churchkey and Birch and Barley and mention in no particular order Tuscarora Mill, Fireworks Pizza, Magnolias Mill, Vintage 50, Ella’s Wood Fired Pizza, Founding Farmers, Pizzeria Paradiso, PubDog, Roots Market, Le Mannequin Pis in Olney, Iota (where Ditched by Kate recently played), Galaxy Hut, Elephant and Castle in DC, RFD, and Bier Baron.

Greg Engert, the beer manager at Churchkey and Birch and Barley, was the first to be recognized as a Beer Sommelier by Food & Wine magazine. John mentions the Ayinger Celebrator, a wonderful beer of its style well worth seeking out.

We close out discussing stores that are starting to cater to drinking and tasting on site. Especially Gillys but also Pinky and Pepe’s Grape Escape are a couple of local examples that go above and beyond places like Norms and Chevy Chase Wine and Spirits.

If you are interested in learning more about your own local beer joints, Beer Advocate is a great place to start.

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You will be able to purchase tickets for Savor tomorrow starting at noon from their web site. They apparently reserve pre-sale tickets for VIPs and attendees from years past and those sold out in next to no time. I thought it would be a useful reminder for anyone else interesting in going, to be prepared to try to buy your tickets at noon sharp, just in case the rest of the tickets go as fast.

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We skip over our usual intro and get right into our tasting of the Victory Golden Monkey with our special guest, Chris Miller of The Secret Lair podcast.  While looking up the particulars of the Golden Monkey, John spots the Wild Devil a beer we are all now very curious to try. Its description puts me in mind of the wild ales available at Churchkey. Following on from some humorous jabs at John’s distinctive facial grooming, Chris mentions the charity with which he participates each year. John rewinds the conversation back to the discussion of wild ales to point out that Wyeast and White Labs offer cultivars of distinctive wild yeast strains and adjunct bacteria for home brewers. Daniel of Mountaineer Brewing Company is a friend of John’s well known to us for his taste for the funky, funky ales.

Chris poses a challenge to us and an offer of some audio for future shows in the from of trying to convert his fellow overlord, Kris Johnson, to beer drinking. I was reminded of how differently we can appreciate the same thing, that I can get chocolate out of a distinctive beer like the Harviestoun Ola Dubh 30 Year while a less experienced palate cannot get past the char. Bearing that in mind, there are certainly more accessible sweet chocolate beers like Young’s Double Chocolate Stout and Heavy Seas Siren Noire which John found on tap at Elephant and Castle.

While we don’t have a brewing update (despite having new beers in the pipe), Chris brought some weighty brewing questions. In response to his interest in wheat free beers to share with his wife, I suggest the Crispin Ciders as they use beer yeasts to carry recognizable flavors into the realm of cider. Turning Chris on to Sam Calagione’s Extreme Brewing may ultimately prove to come back and bite us if he ever makes good on his idea of a squid beer. Cthulhu pthagn.

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In the intro, we discuss the beers we are drinking. Having mentioned it enough in previous casts, I enjoy a Dogfish Head Worldwide Stout. It was one of several beers we picked up at Franklin’s on our last trip there. John enjoyed the Sierra Nevada Bigfoot Barleywine. Before we finish the intro, I also chat about a wonderful brew pub, Schlafly’s Tap Room, that I visited on a recent trip to St. Louis.

Our main segment is a whirlwind tour of the DC area brew pubs we’ve visited and plan to visit. We discuss the District Chophouse and Franklin’s both of which we’ve visited very recently. While at Franklin’s we picked up several beers including the North Coast Old Stock Ale Cellar Reserve 2009 and Stillwater Ales’ Love and Regret. We are also glad to share that our home base, Growlers, is open again after the storm damage over the Summer. The former brewmaster from there has opened Lost Rhino (which used to be 28 North). We also mention Capital City Brewing and Rock Bottom. We’d like to get out to the Ram’s Head Tavern and Mad Fox.

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In the intro, we discuss the beers we are drinking.  For the first time we are in the studio together for both the intro and the brewing update (see below).  We share a Chatoe Rogue Dirtoir Black Lager that I picked up from Gilly’s.  I enjoyed the Chatoe Rogue Wet Hop previously so had a good idea this second beer in the series would be fun to try.  It certainly makes effective use of the new de-husked black malts that we’ve written about before.  Rogue consistently turns what would seem like mere novelties into wonderfully crafted expressions of the brewing art, like their Mocha Porter and Chipotle Ale.

Our main segment is a series of three tastings with returning guest, Chooch.  All three beers share that they were aged on wood.  The first we tried was the J.W. Lees port word reserve.  In discussing it we mention Dogfish Head Worldwide Stout and Burton Baton.  I also compare it to an example from one of my other passions, single malt scotch, in this instanced Glenmorangie’s Quinta Ruban.

The second beer we sample is the Blue Grass Brewery’s Clay Street Series Bourbon Barrel Stout.  If it is a high gravity beer, it hides it well like the Southern Tier Old Man.  John mentions wanting to do a comparison to the Jefferson’s Reserve bourbon barrel stout.

Our third beer was the Southern Tier Cuvee Series 3.  In tasting it, we mention almost every Southern Tier beer we’ve tried before.  I mention the Ommegang Hennepin as pushing that funk that John’s friend, Daniel, from Mountaineer so enjoys.  John likens the brettanomyces note to Victory Golden Monkey.

We also have a brewing update.  We taste my Sun-dial stout that has been in the bottle three weeks and is just about ready to share.  John shares the latest on his stale, vatted IPA, the Green Grass and High Tides, which is coming along nicely.  He has also pitched the fruit into the pair of lambics that we started on our last brew day.

You can grab the flac encoded audio from the Internet Archive.

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Beers from Colorado brewer New Belgium have achieved some level of cult status. Part of the reason for this is that despite being the third-largest craft brewer in America, the brewery did not distribute east of the Mississippi until 2009. However, that is all about to change as we find out from DC Beer that New Belgium is seeking to expand their distribution to D.C., Maryland and Virginia some time this fall. The timeline will reportedly depend on the distributors in the localities, but demand may be high enough to force the distributors to respond quickly.

I have not had a chance to try anything from New Belgium, yet, missing it the few times in recent history I’ve traveled far enough west for it to be available. I am looking forward to picking some up this Fall.

New Belgium to Expand Distribution to D.C., DCist

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